1/3/24 - 2023: Making God Your CEO

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. So what does that look like in your world? Well, let's find out right now.

Jim: For the last 10 and a half years, this show has been called iWork4Him. It's all about making that paradigm shift from thinking that you need to quit your job so you can go work in a full time ministry, to recognizing the fact that God loves your work. And he puts you there on purpose and he doesn't want you to quit your job to go to full time ministry because you are already in a place of full time ministry.

Oh, please help us! A mission field full of lost and hopeless people. That's what your workplace is. But at some point in time, we need to continue the paradigm shift. We need to take it to the next level. To move from iWork4Him to more of a supernatural experience in our workplace. More like I work with him.

You see, God loves our work and he wants to be involved in our work. He showed that reality in the garden when he asked Adam to name all the animals, but in order to do so, God brought the animals to Adam. They worked together. Adam worked with God. So what does that look like in your business? I think it looks like transforming your business into an expression of God's kingdom.

What does that really mean? I am super glad you asked. Today, Peter Lawry joins us from New Zealand. That's right. The other end it's actually tomorrow when we're recording this and that just should blow your mind, but it doesn't he's written a book and teaches seminars all the time about when Jesus calls transforming businesses into expressions of God's kingdom. Peter, welcome to iWork4Him.

Peter Lawry: What an introduction. Thank you so much. I sound like a super expert when you do it that way. And you mentioned your workplaces are full of broken people, and to be honest, we're all broken people, aren't we? We're just disciples on a journey following Jesus.

Martha: Yes. Yeah. So even if we work alone, it's a workplace full of broken people. So, I mean, we're not saying we're not broken, so definitely that is the case.

Jim: All right. So before we talk about transforming businesses into kingdom businesses, can you tell us some of your Jesus story?

Peter Lawry: Sure. Let's try and summarize this for you. So you can tell by my accent, I originally came from England.

I was born to English parents, born overseas in Kenya. I, I gave my life to Christ personally. I was brought up in a Christian home, but gave my life to Christ personally just after we shifted back to England when I was seven years old having been in Hong Kong in the meantime. I went away to boarding school just jumping ahead at the age of, of 13 because my parents went overseas again.

And through that time, I had to try and find a way to work at my faith in a really, really aggressive kind of environment, an anti environment. And at the age of 16, I heard that a friend of mine had gone back to Hong Kong to live there, had been so called baptized in the Holy Spirit. And I had no idea what that was, but whatever it was, I wanted it.

So I got down on my knees in my study, prayed for God to baptize me in the Spirit, and suddenly I just had this overwhelming sense of God's presence. So those are the two real major landmarks that launched my business, launched my life off in God. I found myself speaking in tongues. I'd never heard of anybody who had done before.

That just was what came with the package. However, let's move on from there. So I traveled through so many churches in my background. I was brought up in a Methodist church in England. I've been through American Southern Baptist Missionary Church over in Bangladesh. I have actually worshipped with some Quakers at different times, worked in ecumenical churches, Episcopal churches, blimey, where haven't I been?

I don't know. Anyway, finally through my time at university with a crowd of university friends, we had just spent a whole year praying to God every morning, and we ended up forming a church. So that was a fully independent charismatic church that grew to 250 by the end of the year.

Where do I go on from there? To back to the south of England to a church there where I started to learn things in the spirit. I've been prophesying, by the way, since I was 16, and that's been part of my journey too. Anyway, ultimately over to New Zealand and here I've been through an Anglican church and we're in Baptist churches here, which I have to say - nothing like the American Baptist churches. But yeah a real kind of background of everything.

Jim: You've experienced God in lots of different flavors. Love that But really we all experience God differently and denominations were man's idea not Jesus'.

Peter Lawry: absolutely, right.

Martha: And all of this moving around, which gave you different exposure, I assume is part of also your work journey. You have had worked in multiple different industries and had at least three different career changes. So why don't you outline your career just a little bit? So we can kind of see how that lines up.

Peter Lawry: Sure. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Multiple changes. So I, I started, my university degree was in anthropology, which was such fun, but, but designed nothing for the workplace. So I'd find something to do. I'd always wanted to be a doctor, but never got the grade.

So a friend of mine said, well, he was going nursing. So I became a nurse and I did that for five years. By the end of which stage I was married, I had a child and realize it wasn't going to support us for life. Went to a careers advisor and said, you should go and be an accountant and a real apologies to accountants who are listening.

But my first reaction was seriously, am I that boring? However, he said, no, it's not boring. It's about the fact, Peter, that accountancy is moving forward. It'll help you travel. So I went through that career change. I then actually ran five different businesses of my own and ultimately ended up going back into work for a while as an accountant and that led me into consultancy and so I worked as a as a business consultant through new zealand but through 14 different industries along that journey, too.

Jim: Well, you know, why not? Well, I mean, how do you, how can you be a consultant if you don't have a wide range of experience? All right. So at what point in time, Peter, did God intersect your career and transform it by intersecting your faith and your work? At what point in time did those two become one?

Peter Lawry: Right. So in some respects, that whole journey has been going on the whole time.

But there was a real marker point about seven years ago when I had just moved into the consulting business and an amazing 80 year old prayer friend of mine, who is a prayer warrior, asked me in church one day, I was two weeks in and he said, Peter, how's your business going? Or how's the business going? Actually was his phrase.

I said, Oh, it's great. And I described what was happening. There was a new client coming my way, but I said, you know, I can see it's already getting really busy. And I would so value your prayers that I don't start to lose touch with God in the way that I've developed over the last year while I've been waiting for this to happen.

I don't want my business to take away from that relationship. And he looked me straight in the eyes and he said, Peter, that's the wrong, that's the wrong statement. And I couldn't work out what I'd said was wrong. What have I, what have I said? And he said, what if it's not your business? What if you make God your CEO and you simply become his employee? Nothing more.

And for me, there was an instant kind of paradigm shift, you know, one of those moments in your life when everything changes, your mind seems to do a somersault, and I suddenly thought, my goodness, if that's possible, if that's genuinely possible, everything changes. The whole game changes. The foundations on which we build change. The way the outcomes we expect change. The pressure comes off me, it goes onto his shoulders, and I simply follow in his footsteps. So that was about seven years ago.

Jim: Well, I love the fact that you're not very excited about it, but I mean, you talk about earth shatter? I mean, really what you just - as I said, in the, in the opening - you went from iWork4Him to, you said, I want to work with him. Yeah. And that's at that point where you really ran into that, wasn't it? I mean, how was it different?

Peter Lawry: So put it this way. I began to realize most of us, most of us work from this perspective or kind of come from the perspective of, well, I am a Christian. I need to take that in the workplace. I want to express that I've got to do things his way. So we're looking for principles to apply.

The problem with principles is the moment we have principles, you know, okay, so what would Jesus do tends to be the question that we asked there. What would Jesus do in this circumstance? And what we're looking for is the principle. The challenge is when we think we've got the principle, we can actually say ah, fantastic, thanks God. Right, you can go sit on the bleachers for a while now, because now we know what you want us to do.

We don't need you anymore, we can do it for you. Whereas actually, the invitation of Jesus to every disciple universally, and it goes on and on and on, is simply, follow me. And if we're going to take that seriously, we get to the point where we say, Oh, okay. So, actually, you don't want me to do this for you, on behalf of you. You actually want to be actively involved. So, to do things with him is to say, genuinely, he understands business better than I do. In fact, he even invented business and started to develop some of our early patriarchs of the faith into business.

It's his game. He knows it far better than us. And, actually, if we let him take the lead and we simply follow him in that, evereything changes. And yes, it's genuinely possible.

Jim: I love that. You know, God showed us a way we were focusing on working with him when he called us to write our books. iWork4Him, sheWorks4Him, and iRetire4Him.

We couldn't find a single publisher that had ever launched three books at one time but we knew God wanted us to do it that way. So we literally birthed a triplet of books through God's strength and design and not our own. We love that each of the 52 contributors recorded their own chapter for the audio version. We've got 52 different voices.

It could also be purchased in paperback or as a PDF. For any size donation to iWork4Him, we're going to mail you a paperback copy of the title of your choice. Just go to iWork4Him.com/donate and become a part of the iWork4Him support team.

Martha: You know, this conversation is so near and dear to us, but I love the fresh perspective and the fresh accent doesn't hurt either, you know, makes it

Jim: It's funny though. He thought our audience could tell you were from England instead of New Zealand. That that's pretty funny. Cause I'm sure there's like,

Martha: they just know that you're across the pond somewhere, right? But, but no, we're so grateful to be having this conversation with Peter. And I just want to ask you, does God actually like Business?

Peter Lawry: Oh, yeah, great question. Does he like it? Yes, as I said before, this is his idea. I mean, go back into the Old Testament when he calls Abraham to follow him. Now, bear in mind, there is no scripture at this stage. Abraham is working entirely on experience, and he's called, just Go. Pick up the camels, the tent, the wife, the donkeys, the slaves, the everything, and go.

Where to God? Well, to the land I'm showing you. You don't need to know, just come on the journey. But as he goes on the journey, God begins to multiply his herds, begins to grant him favor, begins to take him forward. Moving on to Isaac, his son, we get to the point where during the course of a single year, God doubles his flocks.

You'll see that in Genesis, moving into the realms of people like Joseph. And these are just the early people in our faith story. You know, we see Joseph, Nebuchadnezzar given a vision that he needs to prepare for his people and God gives that business mind, the entrepreneurial mind to Joseph to move forward. I'm deeply believing that business is not a construct of the world. It's not something we've developed in the commercial world or the capitalist world. It's actually the very heart of God to bring people together.

Jim: Okay. Okay. I got to stop you there. Okay. First, Joseph. Okay. Joseph worked for Pharaoh, Daniel worked for Nebuchadnezzar so we gotta make sure we get that clarification out there. But business..

Peter Lawry: Oh, sorry!

Jim: No, that's fine. That's fine. It it's early in the day there tomorrow. Alright, so, but but I want you to clarify 'cause you're bringing up Abraham and you're bringing up Isaac and you're bringing up Joseph.

I said the question Martha asked Peter, answer the question, does God like business? And what does that have to do with those guys?

Peter Lawry: So, so the business is so you floored me.

Jim: I did I gotcha! Because abraham was such a huge business owner, he had to have 300 armed guards. These guys had monster business enterprises and we don't ever hear that way. We don't we think of them as a patriarch but they had big business and that's why you went there. Of course that's why you went there, Right?

Martha: It is. But you know, I think so many of us, when we read the scriptures, for whatever reason, we filter that out and we just think, they were just going about their life and this is all the things that were happening. But really, what were they doing? They were conducting business.

So we have all these examples, and I love the fact that you said that, you know, Abraham was doing all this without scripture, right? He was setting the pace so it could be written for us to learn from. If God was allowing all of those biblical people to be running businesses, and we take from that that God likes business, then what is this term, what does it mean to be a kingdom business?

Peter Lawry: Yeah, okay. It's a good point. So a kingdom business for me, this is how I begin to define it, is that a kingdom business is different from a Christian business. I deliberately make that transaction in my own mind. So for me, a Christian business is any business that's run by a Christian. So usually those businesses are commercial on their bottom line.

They're looking for, their starting point is we get what business is, is is. We've worked in them. Our parents worked in them. We own one. We understand that. Now, how do I bring my Christianity to that?

Whereas for me, a kingdom business is a business founded absolutely rock solid on the foundation of Jesus Christ. And that comes out of 1 Corinthians where Paul says, no one can build on a foundation other than the one that's already been laid, which is Jesus. So kingdom business is the business that is starts from a different foundation, allows God to take the lead, allows him to be the CEO and enters into this journey of faith, which frankly is quite frightening because suddenly the rule books out the window.

And we're moving from a different perspective. So it's allowing the kingdom of God to invade earth, just as Jesus said to his disciples, tell them that the kingdom has come. So we have to show that the kingdom has come and a business that operates in the kingdom will do that in the commercial world.

Jim: We often say on the show that as a Jesus follower, everything about you should be changing and everyone around you should be benefiting from your faith, whether they believe in Jesus or not. That's the kingdom. Is that, in effect, what a kingdom business does? That everybody, everybody's being blessed by that business, whether they believe in the kingdom or not?

Peter Lawry: Absolutely. And we take this right back to the Lord's prayer. You know. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come on earth exactly as it is in heaven.

So if the Father's heart is to bring kingdom to the earth, then just as when Jesus walked straight into the marketplaces of his day, which were, if you like, from a, a kind of a spiritual perspective, they were quite secular. I mean, they were filled with religion. Yes. And they were filled with the law and understandings of the scriptures, which were wrong, by the way, because Jesus had to reinterpret most of them.

But he, he brought into the spaces of people who just were everyday people the kingdom of God, healing broke in, deliverance broke in, miracles broke in, wisdom broke in, deals broke in. You know, you remember when Peter was out fishing and Jesus said, Peter, put your nets out on the other side. And he had the biggest catch of his life.

I mean, this is God involved in business in a big way. 60 percent of his parables actually relate to finance, business and investment. Extraordinary.

Martha: Another way we know that God likes business, because He knows that we are all going to be involved in it in one way or another, right? Even, even back at the, at the, you know, in the time of Christ, there had to be a marketplace. People had to trade and get things.

Jim: You bet. So you mentioned earlier. That somebody challenged you to make God your CEO. Yeah, there's one guy here in the United States. Guy's name was Stanley Tam who back in the 60s wrote a book: God Owns My Business and talked about the day he made God his CEO. But I'd love to hear it from you. What does it look like to make God your CEO?

Peter Lawry: So this is where it really begins to get exciting because we start to see God to step into that commercial arena and genuinely start to take lead. So for me personally, let me give you three experiences. When I was working as a consultant, I tended to work with only a few people at a time, maybe six people at a time and work very intensively.

And now for some reason, they all came in in batches and they left in batches. And I have no idea why that happened. But the first time it happened, a batch of three left. And so my business halved in effect and I, I said, God, okay, what do we do now? So straight back to him, that's my perspective. So that's my responsibility is Lord, what, what is on your heart?

What do you want me to do now? And on that occasion, he said to me, Peter, don't do anything. I've got something coming for you. So, I had gained my first clients through door knocking, through a telemarketer. He said, just wait. Now within six weeks, I had five referrals and this was early business stage.

Interestingly, that's never happened at that speed at any time since then. And out of those five referrals, I got another three clients. Now the next time it happened, I lost three clients. Lord, what are we doing now? And he said, There is another journey coming. Wait for a moment. Now, at that particular point, there was someone in our organization I didn't know became very unwell.

And I admit this is very much at his disadvantage. But I was asked to pick up his three clients that he had closest to me. So again, God knew what was needed. Third time it happened, Lord, what is it you want me to do now? You know, what's my role? He said, well, just do what any consultant would do. Use a telemarketer.

So those are three just really interesting things. And you see there, there's no, with God, the plan is. Listen, hear, obey, okay? Whereas, that's the strategy that sits behind it. The actual battle plan in each occasion was completely different. And we see that all the time with the armies of Israel as well.

Exactly the same thing. The strategy was always, come to me, listen, hear, respond to what I say, obey what I say, and I will do the work for you. Or I'll ask you to do it for me. So that's just one area in which it can be there. But it can be in finances, it can be in staffing, it can be in just every area of our business.

He takes control.

Jim: But you said God told you to wait. You're a business guy. WAiting means doing nothing.

Peter Lawry: That's a really good, that's a really good question. Now, there's a difference between passive waiting and active waiting.

Jim: Ooh, what do you mean?

Peter Lawry: So passive waiting is, I'll just go sit on the couch and eat my chips and watch the TV and just, you know, God will come along. And we all know that story of the person waiting on the top of the roof of their house and a storm and a boat comes along. No, no, no, I don't need rescuing, God's going to rescue me. That's really passive waiting. You know, sometimes I'm just sitting here. I'm not involved at all. You know, I have no responsibility.

Active waiting is an attitude of abiding in him. And we get this out of John 15. So John 15, Jesus says, if you abide in me and my words abide in you, you will bear much fruit. Now put that into a business context for a moment, because If fruit bearing is inevitable, and I would claim that it is from that verse, , it's inevitable if we fulfill the if clauses of Jesus and there are plenty of them.

So if we abide in him, that sounds really active to me. Abiding is a living space. It's a, it's a space of activity. It's a space of permanence, but it's a space of kind of activity in a restful state. And we see this in the life of Jesus. Every morning off on his own. That time with his father, I believe, was his home space.

And out of that he went to work. So learning to wait is just that, is that active stage of, Lord, I'm here, I'm listening, I'm waiting, I'm wanting, what changes do I need to make? Is there anything in me you need to deal with?

Jim: I would tell you that that is a concept that Martha and I are learning right now. Waiting as an action verb in the kingdom. It's not something I'd ever heard preached before. That that kind of waiting was an action verb. Very, very difficult as a business person. Just sit and wait and abide and focus instead of do, do, do, do, pick up the phone, go make the phone calls. I mean, it's incredible, but great words. Thank you.

Peter Lawry: It seems counterintuitive, doesn't it? Totally counterintuitive.

Jim: Right, but that's God's style. He's counterintuitive.

Peter Lawry: Exactly. The upside down kingdom. Hey, the first come last, the last come first. The person who gave the smallest coin got the greatest accolade in scripture for her giving everything. I mean, this is God. The rules change.

Martha: You know, you said something that really made me stop and think about it for a minute because you were talking about how each time God gave you a different action plan, right? So many people think that if I'm going to make God in charge, if I'm going to make him, let him, allow him to be the CEO, then I'm just going to sit back and he's going to take care of everything.

I think people don't think that there's more than one option, and God has a lot of ways that he can work. And we need to be listening. Like you said, you know, I heard - he told me I need to do this or I need to do that or I need to wait because something's coming. And so I just think that's a key thing to really relate to, especially as we're looking at the new year.

Somebody said to me to just today that most of us live life like rest is a reward. And it really struck me because it's like, I think that's, I never have articulated that way, but I think this resting in, this waiting on God, you know, we think we're supposed to just be passive. And it's so much more than that.

It's leaning into him and listening and being actively involved in what he has to say. So I hope that people kind of, that gets them thinking and listening a little bit more. And I just want to let all the listeners know that we are going to have a link in the show notes for Peter's book, When Jesus Calls, because this is, Jim, you've read the book. What do you want to say about it?

Jim: I summarize in my open. It's shifting that mindset from iWork4Him to I work with him. I mean, it really is. I, I want to hit this and we're just.. Listeners, most of our podcasts go 24 minutes. I knew today would be impossible to do 24 minutes because we're already 24 minutes in. We've got another probably 10 minutes left. So if you want to listen to us in two parts, just go ahead, keep listening. You could pause this and come back. All right, Peter, in your perspective, because a lot of most believers listening to this show today have never heard this sermon. What is the purpose of business here on earth? Doesn't really have a kingdom purpose?

Peter Lawry: Yeah. Yeah. And a really good, that's a really good question. And look, there's nowhere in Scripture that says, you know, this is what I think business is, thus says the Lord. Just as, interestingly, there is no one place in Scripture we can go to, no one place that says God is a Trinity.

We, we, you know, we pull this through the scriptures because of what comes out of them for us. And in the same way, when you look at the way that God engages with people right the way through from the patriarchs, the ancient patriarchs, through to, through to the disciples and through even into the work of Paul, who's, who's very happily working in business and funding his, his own mission out of that as well.

This is what I, this is how I kind of have distilled all that, is that Business is fundamentally not something that the commercial world has put together. Not originally. Actually, kingdom business and, and business with God is God's design to bring groups of people together so that they develop resources, which He, not us, will then apply into His kingdom for his work.

Jim: We did a series and it's that the business will be a blessing to the owner and his family, the employees, the vendors, the customers, in the community that the business operates in, whatever that community looks like. And when it's not doing those things, something's off.

Peter Lawry: And even beyond the community we live in. You know, there is a blessing that flows out. Drop the pebble in the pond, the ripples will go.

Martha: Mm hmm. You know, we love talking about this whole concept of kingdom purpose, and Patriot Mobile sure knows their purpose, and it's all about faith, family, and freedom.

Actually an organization that was founded, like you were talking about, on those principles. So Jim and I, as we use Patriot Mobile for our mobile service, are getting reliable coverage and support for our conservative beliefs. In fact, if you use Patriot Mobile -

Jim: Conservative and Christian beliefs!

Martha: Yes. Yes, both. Both. And, and if you use patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him, you actually help support the work of iWork4Him as we equip workplace believers to see their workplace as a mission field. So I encourage you to switch today to patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him.

Jim: All right, so when a business transforms into expression of god's kingdom. Yeah, what I would, and I believe you, would call a kingdom business, give us just a short list of defining features.

Peter Lawry: Wow. Okay. So, so, that there's a whole lot here that you could probably pick up better with, from, actually from my book. There's a chapter there that's based on the call. What is a call? And there are defining issues for me in every, any call, including the call of Jesus Christ. And they stand out as, you know, first, the knowledge of the call. Secondly, operating by faith. Thirdly, the surrender and obedience of the business owner.

That's a biggie for us. That's not something we talk about in business. language at all. Secondly is, is adopting the character of the kingdom, which is actually the character of Jesus himself, rather than adopting the character of commercial business and operating from there. There are just a whole series of things that will change.

Let me give you this as an example. So one of the things you hear, often hear businesses say is, you know, our staff are our best assets. And where that leads me is, well, for one off, an asset is a consumable item that gets consumed in the process of you developing income. I don't believe that's how God sees people.

All right, that's one. The other big one that they use, and it's real falsehood, is our business is one big family. And I think, well, hang on, family is not got rid of the moment your profits go down. Family is not got rid of when they become unwell. So don't use that word about business. You know, business does have its own, its own parameters.

It's not intended to be wholeheartedly working on the same arena as a domestic family, but it still operates under the Lordship of Jesus, which means people do come first. Well, he comes first, then the people come before the profits. And you see, I suppose my perspective here is that when we start to introduce the kingdom and we let the king be the king in our business, i. e. our CEO, then he undertakes to make sure that the profits happen. That also will be part of the inevitable fruit that we gain. Because he understands business.

Jim: And again, just a reminder, we're talking to Peter Lawry, who wrote this book. He's from New Zealand. I'm not sure I'm saying his last name right. Just say it for everybody. How do you say your last name?

Peter Lawry: Okay, so the LAW would say as law.

Jim: It's Law-ry , Laurie. So Laurie, yeah, that's cool. So in America, be Lowry. So just, just say, Lowry, Lawry, whatever. He wrote this incredible book. We can get it on Amazon.

Peter Lawry: I answer to a lot.

Jim: Just Peter or Hey you. When Jesus Calls: Transforming Businesses into Expressions of God's Kingdom, get a copy on Amazon.

Peter cannot send you a free copy for yourself from New Zealand unless you make a free donation of a thousand dollars to iWork4Him, then I'll help him pay for it. All right, I want to close up our conversation just really quick answer this one really quick - running a business with God. Is it really possible? Is it really possible to involve God in the details of running a business?

Peter Lawry: Yep, it is. I have a group that we, that actually came to me and asked, can we go through the chapters of your book and work out how we apply this in business? And through the course of that, we have just seen God operate. The other thing that you will find is when you read that book, I interviewed people from all over the English speaking world, and every chapter other than the first three introductory chapters, every chapter has their testimonies, their stories that I gained before I even wrote the book. God is already at work in the world operating through business.

Jim: And I'm glad you put that up because I grabbed one of those quotes from Al Whitmore Pryor. He says in your book, "if you're anointed for business, God will put things on you. You will have to be willing to go where it's deeply uncomfortable." That's just following Jesus. "That's what a life of faith and surrender does. It calls you out onto the waters to walk where others won't." I thought if you're willing to follow God and work with him in your business, things would be easier, not uncomfortable. What do you think Al meant by that?

Peter Lawry: What's the best way to answer this? Look at the life, look at the personal life of Jesus. Did he make things easier for some people? In some circumstances, yes, he did. What did he walk through himself, though, as the one who is the example of the king in the kingdom? He was not only the one who broke the prison bars for people and set captives free.

He was also known as the man of sorrows. He was acquainted with grief. He walked through in steps of obedience and that obedience made demands on him and his time so that God's kingdom was established on earth. So this is not us focused. It is Jesus focused. That's what a kingdom business has to be. If we go back in the middle again, guess what?

We're just going to start to build it around ourselves and it will just become another business out there looking a little bit like most commercial businesses, trying to do some good in the world, but actually impacting the world dramatically with the kingdom? You've lost your battle before you start. God needs to be in the center, not us.

Martha: So, two things. One is, I love that you said, you know, these testimonies that you've put in the book, these stories, are already, were already happening, and we know that we can't refute them. Right? So those are experiences that people had, and I love that you've documented it for other people to be encouraged by and challenged by.

But if we're speaking of this dramatic, you know things that can happen, let's talk about kind of the elephant in the room. What about the supernatural? Can the business really usher in supernatural circumstances?

Peter Lawry: Well, let's ground this in scripture and ground this in the life of Jesus before we put practicals.

I've already mentioned the fish with Peter. There was another another time when Jesus and Peter had to pay tax. What happened there? Peter, go catch a fish. In its mouth you'll find a coin. What about when Jesus talks about the fact that if you're faithful in small things, I will put you in charge of many cities?

I mean, small faithfulness in business arenas will grow into other things. So the miraculous in business - Absolutely. So things like the drawing together of a business deal at the moment that it's needed. I'll give you a real live example as well. Not that long ago, I was, I was driving home one day and God said to me, Peter, I want you to contact somebody you know in business. And share this thought with him.

And I thought, yeah, okay, well, I'm driving. No, do it now. So I pulled over, I got out my phone and I actually texted him and I said, look, I'm sorry, forgive me, this is right off the wall, but I believe that you are facing a really sizable contract at the present stage.

God says there are going to be fishhooks in it. He's not saying avoid it. But if you actually walk carefully with him through this, he will show you the way through. He was on the phone in two minutes saying, I've got a contract on my desk. It's one of the largest we've done, not the largest, but one of the largest.

It's in a fishing town, so the fishhooks in there really resonated with me and I'm going right back through that contract now in order to you know, redesign it, re look at it. Have I got everything there that I need to do? God knows you! God loves you! Why wouldn't he want to be involved in your business just like he is in your marriage?

What's the difference to him? We make it different and it shouldn't be. There is no Sunday and Monday divide. God is, is, is wanting to be just as much the God of the scriptures, the God of truth, the God of the miraculous in your business as anywhere else.

Jim: I love it. No problem with passion here on iWork4Him.

Peter, he went and found, he found some things in that contract that needed to be ironed out. Didn't he? He found some things that were in there that needed to be addressed.

Peter Lawry: Well, he addressed the figures. He bolstered the figures. He actually said, one of those, one of those fish hooks has already come in. We've already seen something that's happening. So I'm going through, I'll pad out the figures again. We'll go back with a higher bid than I was going to. And it's given him the leeway the project is now working. There are some challenges on site, but because he was forewarned, he's absolutely on top of the project. So now he's working more actively in it and ironing out the problems as they come. And they're now sailing through.

Martha: You know, and, and also, it makes a testimony for you because you actually walked in obedience to what you heard and you made the call or the text, you know, and got his attention and said, what is, I don't know, I just, there's so much power in your part of that story because you took that step of obedience.

So how do people get in touch with you and the work that you are doing in the marketplace?

Peter Lawry: So I have a website, like everybody has a website, which is good business practice as a starting point. Yeah. So it's, it's www.business-as-mission.com, and there's a contact form on there. If you read the back, if you actually get a copy of the book there are links on the back of there, there's email addresses. There's the website.

Martha: Jim is showing it on video in case you're only listening to it, but we will have all of that in the show notes for everybody. So you don't have to write it down while you're driving or pull over or anything.

Jim: I gotta do an interpretation though. Business dash mission, business dash as dash mission dot com.

Martha: And that will be in the show notes, so to keep it easy. We're grateful there is a way for you to get in touch with Peter and continue this conversation and, and take advantage of this wonderful book that you have taken the time to write with God as your CEO in the, in the driver's seat.

Jim: Peter, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us on iWork4Him today.

Peter Lawry: It's been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.