Jim: You've tuned in to iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement. And I'm your host, Jim Brangenberg. Today, Martha's taking the day off with our granddaughter, Ada. And our mission, just remember, is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. But what does that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

iWork4Him. I've said that one word - yeah, it's one word the way I write it - probably a million times. I figure even today as I've typed it and said it over a hundred times, and if you multiply that by 11 and a half years of days, which is 4, 198 days, that would almost be a half a million just right there.

It's not just an organizational name. It's a statement of faith and it's a way of living, but it's not enough. Is it where God wants us to stop in the progression of living out our faith at work? No, for me, it started when I realized that God loved my work, that my work mattered to God, that my work was my ministry place and my mission field.

I lived out Colossians 3:23 and 24: whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord, not for human masters. Since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

But is it enough? Am I there? I'll tell you, no, again. About nine years ago, I interviewed a man who told me that I had an unfair advantage at work because of the Holy Spirit living in me. But how do I unleash that unfair advantage, which will be to the advantage of everyone working with me? That's what the unfair advantage is. It's the advantage of everybody, but it takes another shift in their thinking. A shift to with. From working for God to working with God.

Shae Bynes has been speaking about this concept for a while now and at the US Christian Chamber Expo in April - go online to uschristianchamber. com; you should join that organization today - she brought it up again. So I invited Shae Bynes to join us for a conversation today to talk about a shift to with. Shae Bynes, welcome back to iWork4Him.

Shae Bynes: Why, thank you, Jim. It's always good to be hanging out with you.

Jim: I hope you feel that way at the end of this conversation 'cause you know I'm already animated as we've had a lot of pre-conversation today. Shae, here's the deal. God has had you doing a lot of things in the last decade. At what point in time did you see your heart move and your mind shift from working for him to working with him?

Shae Bynes: This happened about 12 years ago, and I was actually sitting at church, and our pastor gave a message on Matthew 11, verse 28 through 30. And I'm just sitting there listening to it, and this is the scripture: that, Jesus is saying come to me all of those who are weary. He talks about how his yoke is easy and his burden is light. It's like that group of scriptures. But, that particular day, he read it in the Message Bible, and I'd never heard it before.

And it says, are you tired, worn out, burnt out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you will recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me, work with me, watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill fitting on you. Keep company with me and you will learn to live freely and lightly.

And Jim, when I heard that, it was like, it hit me like water and lightning at the same time. . And as someone who was previously very achievements driven, performance driven, and all of those things and yet a Christian, it was just hitting me hard.

Wait, there's something missing here. It's that with factor. It's walk with me, work with me, keep company with me. And so it was in that moment, I was like, I'm having a God encounter in the middle of church hearing that.

Jim: Wait a minute, you had a God encounter at church? That's an amazing idea. I love that. Okay, so God makes it clear to you that he wants you to work with him, right? Before that point you'd never ever understood that before?

Shae Bynes: I didn't have a grid for that. I didn't have a concept of that. And part of that is because, Jim, my upbringing in church... I had a lot of Bible stories. I knew God loved me. I knew Jesus loves me. I knew all of that. So I knew about the Father. I knew about Jesus. I didn't know about the Holy Spirit. I didn't know about the Holy Spirit who's there to lead me, to guide me in all truth, being the ultimate teacher. I just didn't know. So then, so I grew up in that church environment, and then in my college years, I was at churches that were, like, spirit filled, charismatic churches.

They were all non denominational, but that's when I was seeing some different things going down in church that I didn't quite understand, but it always happened inside the church building. It still wasn't like - we weren't talking about walking with the Lord every day and all the things. And so I had two contexts. One, which was people say jokingly, Father, Son, and Holy Bible, but that was pretty much what it was like for me. That was like, that was the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Bible. And then it was like, Oh, there's a Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is about just these interesting things that happen inside of this church building. It seems weird to say this now, but it was.

Jim: No, it doesn't seem weird. Cause I, I never went to a church where any weird things happened inside the church. So I certainly wasn't expecting them to happen outside of the church. Follow Jesus. He made it possible to have this intimate relationship with our heavenly father. And God wants us to live it to the fullest. He wants, Jesus came to restore that which was lost in the garden where Adam and Eve walked with God. They talked with God. They worked with God. As Adam named all the animals, God brought all the animals to him. They worked together to get it done. They had flourishing, mental flourishing and physical flourishing and spiritual flourishing. And that's what Jesus came to restore. And the supernatural is part of that.

Shae Bynes: It is. So it was just interesting that I didn't have a grid for it. But it was a combination of my spiritual upbringing and then also culturally. You think about, American culture, which is very much rooted in independence and work hard and all of those things. So I had like my achievement oriented, independent kind of thing going on with a lack of understanding of my relationship and what it means to abide in him and him abide in me. And so those things together just was like a me working and doing things primarily in my strength. And then eventually also saying I want to do that for the glory of God.

When I stopped compartmentalizing my life, yes, of course I want everything in my life including my work to be for the glory of God, but I was still doing it in my own strength.

Jim: But you know by doing for the glory of God instead of with the glory of God. The faith and work movement now is you know it's really a hundred years old because CBMC is almost a hundred years old, but you know as it's picked up pace since the mid 70s, early 70s, it's always been about faith and work, and it's always been about working for God.

 The first time I realized that I could work for God, that I didn't have to quit my job to go work in a church I was, that was astounding. I was so excited. It wasn't until I started meeting people like you where I realized my faith had so much more power and that God wanted so much more for me. He didn't want me to be striving. He didn't want me to be exhausted. He didn't want me to be stressed. Yes, I'd read the scripture: Come to me all you are weary and heavy laden and I will give you yeah, I mean I get that. I'm a business guy and I'm used to being weary and heavy laden. So I thought that was a natural thing.

Jim: You're a businesswoman. You know that stuff. The movement, in my opinion, when I heard you talk in April at the U. S. Christian Chamber Expo, it reminded me of a conversation where God had started talking to me last December saying, we need to shift to with. I need people to learn to work with me. I have all the answers. I have the exact pace people need to work at. I just want people to work with me. Have them, it's really an experiencing God kind of concept when you think about it. See where God is working. Go work with him. Instead of saying, God, here's what I'm going to do. You want to come over here? Because this would be really cool if you could just work with me over here.

We would say that we're all in the faith and work movement. In reality, how are we going to help the faith and work movement shift to with?

Shae Bynes: I think when it comes to intimacy with God and all of these conversations, it starts with us. Kingdom culture starts within us before it can be multiplied and expressed through other people. So more of us have to individually make the shift in order to then have that message that then gets replicated in other people, because if you can't do that with authenticity, it falls flat.

So it comes from within. And then those who are catalysts to then bring that to others. And so to me, I just look at myself as a catalyst of this message of with. And so I have helped a lot of people in the last 12 years transition to with. And I believe that all of them then also become catalysts of helping others to make a shift to with.

Maybe not in the way that I do it. Because I'm called to lead a movement connected to it, but for them, just in their every day, with other business owners that they're around, just being able to share the message or share a mindset shift or, go read this book, Grace Over Grind, whatever.

But I feel like it starts with each individual and then it gets multiplied to the people around us. But if we don't have more people who are at the leadership level, at the movement level, that have made that transition, that slows down the multiplication.

Jim: So many different ways I want to go with this conversation, but I want to take a moment just to thank SaferNet.

SaferNet's been a supporter of iWorkRim for a long time, and SaferNet supports safety on your computer by website filters, internet filters, a VPN. You could go into a hotel lobby, connect up to the Wi Fi and not worry about somebody hacking your computer. I encourage you, we use SaferNet on all of our devices at iWork4Him. I encourage you, check it out online at safernet. com, safernet. com.

About six months ago, no, maybe four months ago, I think it was March. I have no idea. When you connected me to, a guy named Bill Hollis out of South Africa. And I just finished reading his book. It's in rough draft form right now. I don't know if he's given you a copy to read yet, but I just finished, I'm almost done reading. I actually haven't got to page 368 yet, but it's really all his story, about here's all the ways I have tried to work with God and I've screwed it up along the way. It's just great.

I've never heard those stories from Shae Bynes, But, and honestly, I was looking through my library going, how come I don't have a copy of Grace Over Grind on my library shelf? How come I have not ever read that book? And so I'm embarrassing admitting I've never read that book. And I'm sorry. But I want to hear your story of how you've tripped up trying to figure out how to work with God.

Shae Bynes: Sure. So we can go back. By the way, I still trip up because this is a journey of growing in him. We go from one level of glory to the next, right? So this is not, there's no, I've made it. There's no, I walked this thing out in perfection. So let's be clear about that up front.

Jim: Your husband Phil called right before the show and said, believe me, if she says she's got it figured out, no way does she haven't figured out. He already called. It's already, it's on record.

 (laughter)

Shae Bynes: I want to make sure that was clear. Okay. But I'll tell you about some of the beginning stages for even beginning to reorient myself in a different posture, right? So for me, the beginning was when I was like, all right, Jesus, show me this. What does this even look like?

For me, the beginning part was around really cultivating just like this awareness of his presence and cultivating a confidence that I do hear his voice. And so for me, that looks like some new ways of engaging God. Previously when I would read the Bible, I would read Oh, I'm reading the Bible in a year. Again, going back to the achievement thing. I'm reading it, reading it, and reading it the next day. Then read the next day. It was like for the reading sake, and I started saying, okay, as I was reading and I'd say, okay, Holy Spirit, help bring understanding to this to me. Bring understanding to what I'm reading to me. Or I said, where, where should I read today?

There'll be times where I would camp out in a chapter like for a long period of time. And I was asking him to show me things beyond the words that are on these pages. I wanted to engage in conversation. So that was one thing. Then I was like, okay, as it relates to my work, I'm a strategist. That's just, that's how I'm wired. And so instead of me having all of my strategy figured out and running through the races, I started surrendering my to do list to God. And I started asking him questions. I'd be like, Lord, these are my thoughts, but what are yours?

I said, God, what's your heart concerning the people I'm serving? What's your heart concerning this work? And I just started engaging God in different ways. And as I was doing that, I was realizing, wow, I was getting ideas. And some thoughts and some things that were like, ah, that wasn't my idea. At least I don't think that was my idea.

And I would start walking it out in faith because some people will say, Jim, how do you know that was God? I didn't know for sure. But the demonstration of my faith was that I was willing to take a step forward to see. Let me see. Let me test that out. And so I started experimenting with walking that out when I'd ask God for thoughts around things or around things around my work.

And I was just like, even when it would be something that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, I'd be like, let me just take a step in that direction and see what happens. Now, this is many years ago, right? But God was so faithful to confirm as I was moving and so that was how I was like exercising the faith muscle, to say I hear from God and he like he speaks, and he brings understanding, he brings strategy. He's the one who makes this work come alive in my every day, including this work. And I just started walking that out in practice, which also means that I screwed some stuff up. That was probably not what he said. And that didn't quite work out the way I thought.

Jim: Hang on. I know you can preach for 30 minutes. I've heard it. You've got to take a deep breath though. Give me a chance.

So how do you know when it's not from God? What is your mechanism now today in 2024 to know, yep, that was an idea, that was from Shae? That wasn't from God. What is your mechanism for verifying?

Shae Bynes: This is also not 100 percent foolproof.

Jim: We're not talking about a formula. I'm just asking, how does God work it with Shae?

Shae Bynes: Yes. So one of the things I learned over time, so 12 years ago, I'd say my posture was, I was looking, it was almost like I was looking for peace or people like, follow the peace, look for the peace, all of those things. And then over time I realized that peace resides on the inside of me and I need to recognize when peace escaped me, different orientation.

And so what would happen is that instead of me making decisions, like looking for, Oh, looking for this external peace or something, like looking for this, searching for this peace, and I started changing my reorientation because he says, delight yourself in me. I'll give you the desires of your heart, as I was growing in intimacy with God.

And I had that awareness of his peace with me. I started realizing when things were like, ah, doesn't, even though this thought's coming and I'm taking these steps, something's not right about this. Something's, I need to sit, I need to slow down on this thing. I need to seek God around this thing a little bit more. That type of thing. So it was like our internal, like you can't - Jim, people look for formulas and you can't formulize intimacy with God. You can't shortcut intimacy with God. You can't be like, Oh, how do I pass the test of intimacy with God? And you can't bypass that to work with him.

And so it takes the willingness to spend time with him, to take some risks, to learn some things and walk it out. That's what I've done. I can't fast forward that for somebody, but I can say, I can give them the confidence to say that as you do and as you walk that out with him, you will grow in more confidence as you walk it out. But ask me whatever you want.

Jim: I want to go back cause I don't feel like you answered my question the way I was looking for it. I was looking for a different answer. When you're hearing something from God, so you think you're hearing something from God, do you have. Intercessors that you convene with going, are you hearing the same thing or what are you hearing?

Do you go to Phil and go, what are you hearing? How do you get verification that it wasn't just your head coming up? 'cause you're a creative, and you're also, you're a visionary, so you're always coming up with the new ideas. So that's naturally.

Shae Bynes: Actually, I'm not, by the way.

Jim: Oh, you're not?

Shae Bynes: That's my husband. I'm an implementer.

Jim: Oh, you're an implementer. Okay. That's fine.

Shae Bynes: Yeah. I'm a strategy and implementation. My husband's the visionary.

Jim: So you never come up with new ideas?

Shae Bynes: Of course I come up with that.

Jim: Okay, That's my point. Thank you very much. You just wasted 30 seconds of the interview.

 (laughter)

Jim: All right. But my question is - you guys, Shae and I have been friends a long time, and this is a conversation we're having a lot of fun with. We're talking with Shae Bynes. Check her out online. ShaeBynes. com. ShaeBynes. com. You'll want to check out all of her resources. And she's the one that originally Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur, check that out. She speaks. I mean she consults. She does it all. Shae, I just want to know how do you verify that you've heard from God?

Shae Bynes: Yes. Okay. So you'd ask me specifically about, do I go to my husband or I go to, it depends. Because I'm not going to go to somebody else to confirm every single thing all the time. But when there are things that have significant ramifications, like right now, just this past week, there was something that I need to make a decision on that was very significant. It was going to be a longer term commitment to this decision, and I didn't have, I was just like, there's something around this that I'm just having an issue with.

And I'm not sure, I think this is possibly something God's showing me, but I'm not quite sure. And so what do I do? I have my, I have a few advisors in my life. My husband is one of them, but I have a few advisors outside of my husband that I tend to go to say, Hey, this is something I've been, this is something that's coming up for me. This is what I've been thinking about. I feel like this is what God's showing, but I'm not quite sure. And I just asked for some wisdom on it. Or I ask them to pray with me about it. It depends on what the situation is and who the person is I'm talking to. I just did this. So yes, I absolutely do that, but I don't do that for every single decision.

Some of these things is just, I just walk it out. I take some steps and I'm engaging God as we go. So it just depends on how significant that decision is.

Jim: And it would seem to me that the deeper your relationship with your heavenly father, the more you know his voice and you're like, okay, I got it.

Shae Bynes: That's right. And that, by the way, took time, which is why I had that sideline rant. Because business owners are always looking for just no, but what's that quick thing that does it? Intimacy takes time.

Jim: That's why Abraham and Sarah didn't have a son when Abraham was 75. He was a hundred because it took 25 years for Abraham to hear the voice of the Lord. And then another 17 till he was tested when God, or whatever it was - 13 to 17, when he said, I want you to sacrifice your son to me. And Abraham knew it was God's voice. You've got to learn to hear God's voice. Then you can execute on the things he's asking you.

Shae Bynes: Can I say something?

Jim: Of course you can.

Shae Bynes: And the thing is that I tell people, even now walking this out for the last 12 years, I'm not like, Oh, I a hundred percent know, and I wait till I get this hundred percent clarity before I move. No. To me, the life of faith is that there's always this mystery. So I don't expect to have this hundred percent clarity. Oh, I just know this. No, I'm leaving space for what I do not know all the time. So when people are like, Oh, how clear are you? I'm like, I don't need a hundred percent clarity. I got about 60 percent and that's enough for me to keep moving. I got 70%, right?

And I think it's important for people to know that because I think we put these expectations on our ability to hear and respond that we get stagnated by, but I just don't 100 percent know. But what's the life of faith? It's, there's a corresponding action. So how do you know? How do you grow in confidence? By actually walking it out.

Jim: Such great words. And Shae, I love them. And let's take it down just a notch for a second. You're a wife and a mom of three. How are you working with God in those areas?

Shae Bynes: Yes, so I'll give you just super practical examples when it comes to parenting. So I have three kids from three different generations. My oldest daughter is 23.

My middle is 16. My baby is 7. Okay, so big gaps. So they live extraordinarily different lives. So parenting them is very different. A conversation with my middle daughter. There are times where my middle daughter might have an issue around something and I'm having to actually seek God around how do I respond to what my child just said?

I'm thinking I need to address this, but Lord, how do I address it? Because how I address things with my oldest daughter does not work with my middle daughter. There's things that my middle daughter, each child has their own design. And there's things that they have that are God things, but they get out of whack where they're not learning how to direct them.

And so I have to say, I don't want to break the thing that God put inside of her. I want to nurture it. And so I have to seek God for strategy on. And just sometimes just in the middle of a conversation, I'm pausing and asking the Lord, do I deal with this? What do I say? Like in real time, same thing with my husband, same thing with my husband.

We'll be in a conversation. And sometimes I call it heated fellowship. He thinks that's funny. Heated fellowship, conversation around something. And I'm pausing and I'm like, Lord, is this conversation for now? Is this conversation for later? What am I, what do I need to shift? What am I not seeing? I'm literally in conversation with my husband and also having conversations with the Lord.

So he will in real time guide and direct. So it is, it's the with God life. So it's not just in the morning praying for my children. Of course, praying for my children. But also while I engage my children, He's right there with me. He has shut my mouth more than once or said don't deal with that, I've got that. Or here's something that you do need to deal with or telling me something that she doesn't know that I know. And they're like, let me know some information I need to know that I wouldn't have known if God didn't show me and then I go and deal with it, right? And so it's that just that life in him. Abide in him as He abides in us.

Jim: I would say that the large, very large majority of the body of Christ in America, we'll just keep it in the United States of America, has no idea how to walk with God, how to work with God, how to live with God, how to flourish with God. How do we tell them to get started?

Shae Bynes: That's why I go back to that beginning: do something different with God. You might want to start with how you engage the scripture. Read the word with the living word, right? So as you're reading that scripture, ask God some questions. Ask Holy Spirit to illuminate some truth for you in the words that you're reading. Actually take something that you wouldn't normally talk to God about, something that might feel like, oh, that's small, I've got it, and actually seek God around that. Ask God some new questions. Just to engage differently begins to start to shift you.

Jim: I love that. Any final thoughts? Any final thoughts on the whole shift to with?

Shae Bynes: I really feel like, I used to think many years ago that this was simply an invitation to God's best. It is an invitation to his best, but I believe it's also the life that we're called to. We are wired, we are designed, we are created to abide in him. Jesus said so himself. And so for anyone who's hearing this and is yeah, that's interesting, Shae, Jim, okay, but eh.

This is actually what you're called to. If you are a citizen of the kingdom of God, and going to be an ambassador, a kingdom ambassador as well, then, and we're really going to release the glory of God and the goodness of God to the world around us, we've got to do that with him. So I say embrace the invitation and embrace the reality that you were designed and built and wired for this and get ready for a wild and crazy and amazing adventure with God.

Jim: Wow. Shae Bynes, great conversation. We could do this forever, as she knows. You guys don't know this, but I would encourage you to check out Shae online, ShaeBynes. com S H A E B Y N E S dot com. Lots of great resources. You got a conference coming up? Bring her in. She'll blow the minds of everybody there.

Shae, thanks for being here today with us. Appreciate it. Us, me, myself and I, because I'm used to having Martha right here. Like it's the first show I've done without Martha in a really long time. But thank you, Shae.

Shae Bynes: We love you, Martha.

Jim: Yes, we do. We do. Now, just want to remind everybody, we do have a one minute Power Thought that we produce every day, every weekday, and you can get it on Facebook. You get on our website. You can subscribe to it on your favorite podcast platform. The iWork4Him Power Thought. It's your inspiration for the beginning of your day, check it out online. You can also listen at iWork4Him. com forward slash listen to get ahold of it. Thanks for listening in today.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. I'm a Christ follower, my workplace, it's my mission field. Ultimately iWork4Him!