Jim: You've tuned in to iWork4Him , the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What does that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: If there's one topic that 100, 000 people in the speaker circuit talk about, it's leadership. Yet all 100, 000 of those speakers would have their own take on it, their own spin on what makes a great leader. About 8 years ago we learned about GIANT. This is a leadership training organization that's completely different from all the others.

The focus of Giant and all of their leadership Sherpas is to help a leader become 100 percent healthy so they can multiply themselves effectively. Or as our guest puts it in her LinkedIn profile, liberated leaders liberate their people. Dr. Jessica Rimmer is the CEO and founder of Solomon Strategic Advisors, and she uses the GiANT Worldwide platform to transform leaders.

Jessica is renowned also for her wisdom on how to incorporate one's faith in one's work, and is a chapter director for the Polished Network. She has a great story and a great perspective to share with all of you today. Dr. Jessica Rimmer, welcome to iWork4Him.

Jessica Rimmer: Thank you so much

Jim: . Now just a warning for all of you listeners out there. We have a doctor on the show today. Jessica, if you use a five syllable word, we have a rule here on iWork4Him. I will stop the show and ask you to give the definition, so just keep that in mind.

Martha: A little game show.

Jim: It is a little game show.

Martha: All right. So before we talk about liberating leaders, tell us your Jesus story.

Jessica Rimmer: Oh, my Jesus story. That started a very long time ago. My dad is a pastor, which does not automatically make a person a Christian. So don't think that I am confused, but that meant I sat on the second row, like most pastors kids do.

And rather than turning away from the faith, I was really interested. I think Jesus captured my Attention really early and about age five, we were in a revival. So I can say my dad wasn't even the preacher and I leaned over to my mom and I said, Hey, after that, after this, we need to go down and I want to give my heart to Jesus.

And so I was five. I got baptized that next service. That was the morning. I got baptized at the night service. And I was ready to be on the playground sharing my faith. I literally was like telling people on the big toy about how I had given my heart to Jesus and how they should too. So immediately was excited and enthusiastic about that life change.

And of course, my story can't end with conversion. That would be silly. But walked with Jesus a lot. There's, of course, twists and turns as we all have. But I'm grateful that God pursued my heart. And I really felt called to the ministry. And I use air quotes ministry. Probably, I guess I surrendered to the ministry about three, four times at youth camp and found out that there wasn't a lot of place for me in the church environment to serve as a minister, as a woman, and really found my place - this is where we begin to have unified hearts.

I went to OBU to study ministry. I studied cross cultural ministry at first. And that's where I started thinking about theology and who is God and who am I. And I've been on a journey with Jesus. I'm 42 years old, in case people never say how old they are, I'm not sure that's helpful. But for all of those years since age 5, I've been on a journey to discover who is Jesus and who am I.

Jim: Cross cultural ministries, but you're from Oklahoma! Not a lot of cross cultural things when you were growing up, but people had a little bit different twang here and there, depending on whether they're from Oklahoma City or Tulsa. What was the cross cultural you were looking to explore?

Jessica Rimmer: So that's funny. I think you probably have to understand a little bit of Christian culture to get this. But I considered foreign ministry. Foreign missions would be the term that would have been used in the 90s. I thought that was like varsity Christianity. Lottie Moon, Annie Armstrong, like all these missionaries that had given - even Mother Teresa to some, to some degree.

I didn't have a lot of knowledge of her until college, but like Those were the type of people that I thought those people really love Jesus. And so I just wanted to live a life like that. And I didn't have a grid for it being anything else than far away in Africa or China. And so I've done some foreign mission work, but I really found that God reformed, reshaped my definition of mission field.

And that is, we are all on mission, right? Every single one of us. And being born when I was born and living and working in the digital age. It's really God brought the nations to us. And I think for me, ministry and missions really is it is what I do every day. It's just called something very different.

Jim: If you, our listeners are watching on YouTube, you'll notice right when Jessica said she felt called to ministry with air quotes, a beam of light came down from above her and started shining on her head. It was just incredible. So you went to OBU, Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, Oklahoma, where my brother went as well for your undergrad and then University of Oklahoma for your graduate degrees. All the way up to doctorate.

And then you planted yourself in higher ed for more than a decade. At what point in time did you realize that your executive calling was your ministry calling? What was the point where you said this is one and the same? It's not a separate thing. I'm not a second tier citizen in the kingdom because I'm an executive.

Martha: Jv versus varsity. (laughs)

Jessica Rimmer: It's interesting. I think for me OBU does talk a lot about the infusion, the relationship of faith and learning, like those two things. So it wasn't a very far logical step to talk about faith and work. To me, it was very clear. Just theology. I read a lot of theology. It was very clear to me that work wasn't a curse. And so for me, I was really just reading the Bible.

Jim: Wait stop. You've read what ? Wait, you read what? You read your Bible?

Jessica Rimmer: I read my Bible.

Jim: The whole thing?

Martha: That's awesome.

Jim: Wow.

Jessica Rimmer: Yeah.

Jim: I'd like to draw attention to the listeners. If you haven't read your Bible from cover to cover one time, you should. I recommend reading it multiple times, 30, 40, 50 times, because it's unbelievable and it really would change your perspective, but way too many believers listening to the show haven't done that, Jessica.

Jessica Rimmer: Man, God's Word is living and active, and it's nourishment. It's food, and it's wisdom. It's practical wisdom for everyday life. There's just so much. You can't, you can't step into the same river twice. You really can't have a singular experience with the Bible. God's Word is alive and ready to speak to our specific circumstances.

So I think as I matured, I had a more mature reading of scripture. And as I had a more mature reading of scripture, I matured more. So I think it's reciprocal in that way. But yeah I think understanding what is God saying to me in scripture is so important for people as they're seeking to live their lives, whatever God is calling you to, whether that's being an accountant or being a pastor, neither one of those things is more spiritual than the other thing.

Martha: You're speaking just great things. It's a love language. So talk to us about how God has given you the confidence to be the strong female leader that He actually created you to be.

Jessica Rimmer: Oh, man. Sometimes I feel like the personality and the gifts that God has given me is a little bit like being equipped with a fire hose. And a fire hose is awesome if people want you to put out a fire, but it's not awesome if what they want you to do is water the garden. And so a lot of times the strength has not felt like a gift. It has felt like a burden. I remember reading things like a woman is to have a gentle and quiet spirit. And I'm like why'd you make me like this then?

And so I think I've had to learn how to one submit my heart and my gifts and my mind and all of that to the Holy Spirit, but to gain the mind of Christ in it. In being able to view my gifts as gifts rather than goodness gracious, I've really been given a cactus as a personality when other people were given really good, likable personality.

So my leadership gifts wasn't always able to view them without insecurity. I felt very insecure about, I had them. It wasn't like I was then like being quiet. It was like I was using them but self consciously. And so I think the first person who acted as a liberator to me in helping me view them as gifts was my first boss at Mid America Christian where I served for 10 years.

It's a Church of God institution. They view women in ministry very differently than the denomination where I was raised, and he just spoke life to me and just corrected some lies that I had really adopted about what it means to have strong leadership giftings as a woman and kind of gave me permission to use them and gave me opportunity to use them. And so the, that's where the confidence began. I think the acceptance and the full Oh no, this is good. It's not even just like an adaptation. It's not an accommodation that someone's accommodating my intense personality. That's the word I've gotten so many times is gosh, you're so intense.

And I'm like, Oh, thank you. That actually makes me feel very self conscious now. And the acceptance and the confidence to use it and bloom in it has probably come really in the last six years in the business world because it actually is more of a match in the business world than In Christian higher education where there's a lot of pressure for women to be nice.

Jim: But that's a lie though, too because there's an absolute need. Obviously God created you the way you are. There's a need for people like you and any kind of education, let alone Christian education, which is a hot mess, there's a lot of stuff that could use improvement and sometimes people just need to speak truth. And God's giving you that ability to just speak truth. People may say it's a lot. Jessica, you're a lot. People say that to me. We must be a lot alike.

Martha: But you know what? One of the things that I love about this conversation is number one, You are very nice. But you're not like soft and you can't run all over you. I think that's what we think of is we'll just let whatever happen happens.

But you have the amazing ability to articulate things in such a way that even if it's hard, it feels really good. You are very gifted in that. And just, your ability to communicate in a way that gets the point across. And it may be a hard point, but in a way that, man, I feel empowered. I feel like this is really good meat that we can work from. And I've noticed that the different times I've heard you speak and interact with other people. So even in this moment, just going to affirm you with that, because I am often drawn to women like you because I'm married to you know a strong "a lot" person over here. So I get it. I get it. (laughter)

Jim: Go to youtube and note this time and look at my face. Look at - I'm shocked. (laughter)

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All right, you say liberated leaders liberate their people. What do you mean?

Jessica Rimmer: So this is something I got from GiANT Worldwide, which was a huge part. To tag on to that previous question, a huge part of growing in confidence is getting around healthy leaders who are fighting to be healthy and who are fighting for each other.

So we define liberation as fighting for the highest possible good in the lives of those that you lead. But you can't give away what you don't have. So if I'm not liberated, there's no way I'm going to be a liberator. If I am self conscious, if I am self occupied, if I'm stressed out and I'm not leading myself, I'm not going to liberate other people. But if I'm liberated, if I'm free, if I'm empowered, then I'm going to be the type of person who is also doing that for other people. So liberated leaders fight for the people in their lives and not fight for them to be coping and just okay, but fight for them to be fully free, which probably makes you think about Jesus, right?

Like Jesus was the perfect, is the perfect liberator. He's the lion and the lamb. He is going to speak the truth in love. And so when we think about being liberated, we're really talking about the type of leader who is healthy. That 100x model, healthy. People want to be around them, but then they're also multiplying themselves so that other people can be healthy and empowered, too.

Martha: So you talked earlier about your boss that you remember that really liberated you. And so using this same verbiage, when a liberated leader helps liberate his or her people in the workplace, how does that affect the workplace culture?

Jessica Rimmer: Yeah. Healthy culture grows healthy plants. Unhealthy culture kills healthy plants. And so if you think about workplace culture as atmosphere, the leader should be the gardener. We need to tend the conditions. And so as a leader gets healthy, they begin to take care of business. They begin to like, have the kind of conversations where they are holding people accountable, but not in a way that makes them afraid. That makes them more aware and makes them more effective.

Really a liberator is going to be the type of person that is able to drive performance. They're the type of person that is able to understand and know their people. They're the type of person who is able to unlock the team members around them. And that's just unfortunately not the primary experience that people have in the American workplace particularly.

Jim: You think it's different overseas in other countries? Do you think it is better other places?

Jessica Rimmer: I just don't know. I would imagine no. I just know the US data better than I know the global data. My suspicion and my little bit of international experience because I have a smidge is to say that most companies have the same problems everywhere. And the thing is, we are dealing with a global workforce. So there's not as many boundaries as there used to be.

Jim: So is a liberating business culture or liberating organizational culture, does that help the bottom line? Within Solomon Strategic Advisors, you guys are working with all kinds of companies all the time. When you help a leader to be liberated, so then he could, therefore, he or she can liberate his or her people, do you find that impacts all the way to the bottom line?

Jessica Rimmer: For sure. What liberation produces is trust. What trust produces is creativity. What creativity produces is innovation. What innovation produces is market leadership. And so if you understand that actually you have this huge opportunity to impact the bottom line by working on yourself and your team and your culture, that's a reason to do it. I don't know that it's the primary reason to do it, but it should be a natural outflow if you really are creating liberation.

We know that it's more complex than that, that there are structures that have to be addressed. You have to have goals, you have to have strategies that won't necessarily come if you're just a liberated leader. You have to then surround yourself with a group of liberated, diverse talent. No one person brings everything to a table.

So being liberated is not about being perfect or a team unto yourself, but it does give you the highest chances of assembling what Jeremy Kubicek, our mutual friend, likes to call you know the avengers, right? That special squad of Different people with different gift mixes and everyone has a higher likelihood of contributing their superpower.

Jim: It's said that the most powerful leadership team is the leadership team that represents the fivefold gifts mentioned in the Scriptures. When you really look at those fivefold gifts, that's really how you make a great team. I just have heard that . Martha?

Martha: I wanted to just talk a little bit about our journey because about three years ago, Jim and I completed the GiANT Worldwide Sherpa training, and we were looking at ourselves and saying, How can we be better leaders? And we wanted to go through that ourselves.

And about that same time, I met you in Dallas at the first ever Boldly Conference. And then I learned that you were a chapter director for the Polished Network, and Polished Network is who hosts the Boldly Conference. I want you to tell ... I know we want to talk to the heart of the woman leader right now, but first I just want to mention this podcast is going to come out the week of this year's Boldly Conference.

And if you, by chance, can get to Dallas in the next few days, the promo code, I'll put the website in there and our promo code for, iWork4Him.

Jim: It's Boldly Conference.com.

Martha: Yes. And our promo code is IWORK4HIM20 to get a discount on your registration, but talk to me for a minute about your heart for women leaders.

Jessica Rimmer: Yeah I really love serving Polished. We had our monthly luncheon today. Catherine Gates, the executive director was in town and at Oklahoma City, our chapter serves about 100 to 120 women every month. We have sometimes less, sometimes more, but that's roughly an average. And the women that come to our lunch, they are so diverse.

We're not just serving C suite executives or mid level managers. We've got frontline manufacturing workers. We've got athletic studio teachers. We've got, I met a lady who runs a local nonprofit today. And every month we have new people. So my heart for this group is really to cultivate a community where women feel seen and loved. That's not the norm of women's reputations with one another. We don't have a norm for fighting for each other. We have a norm for relational aggression.

Jim: Like mean girls lived out in the real world?

Jessica Rimmer: That's it. Yeah. Mean girls out in the real world. So it's funny that you bring that up because every month I say, you can sit with us. You're already invited. You're already invited. You do not need to wait on an invitation. In fact, you can be the inviter. And so I've been talking every month I'm the emcee about we want you to find your people. We want you to find a job or whatever you need in terms of networking. More than that, we want you to find a safe place where you can be prayed for and where you can be known because it's just not the case.

And what we find, the reason that Polished Network exists is that actually working women, which is more than 70 percent of women, working women, tend to not be able to find ways to connect in a traditional church setting, particularly when church programming is happens during the day. And so finding time away from their children is really hard. So the lunchtime hour works really well. And we just have a really sweet community of women who really are becoming that, they're becoming love for one another. And it's really awesome.

Jim: So if somebody's in the Oklahoma City area and they want to come to your event. How would somebody find out more?

Jessica Rimmer: So if you go to the Polished network. org, you can go to chapters and then select Oklahoma city and come. And we've had women come from as far as Wichita, Kansas. So there's a chapter being explored there and Tulsa. So we have people drive pretty far. I get, it's hard to be away from work. It's a sacrifice, but every time I go and I hear this over and over it's, man, that was worth it. I'm so glad. I'm so glad I made time for that.

Martha: So good. Thank you for sharing that. And I hope that somebody is listening that could be close to you and be able to get involved in Oklahoma City. But I also know that there are chapters all over the place. Everyone listening could go and check out the Polished Network. I'll put the link in the show notes. And see if there's something near you that you could gather for but if not, the annual Boldly Conference is a great place to do that and just get filled up, get challenged, be inspired by other women that are living out their faith in their work. And I hope to see some of you there.

Jim: And you get to meet martha and jessica at the Boldly Conference

Martha: But we'll take a selfie with you,

Jim: but you won't meet jim because men are not allowed.

Martha: That's exactly right Yeah, so I want to get just a little bit deeper into how God is using you, Jessica. And this spring, I had the privilege of attending a gathering of Faith and Work for Women ministry leaders, where you beautifully facilitated a two day conversation. And yes, it was a two day conversation when you get that many women together, right?

But it was specifically around collaboration for the kingdom. And I was able to see firsthand how God was using your gifts, talents. and abilities. So I wanted you to take a moment right now and speak to our listeners and challenge them to further develop their leadership so that they could be a leader worth following.

Jessica Rimmer: So the first thing I would say if I'm challenging the audience is everyone is a leader. We all have responsibility to lead the person in the mirror. And so we never undermine our external leadership more than when we fail there. And that's tough. That's probably the hardest person that any of us have to lead every single day is ourselves. And that is about waking up every day and deciding to be intentional.

Where am I not as healthy as I need to be? And I don't mean skinny. I just mean healthy, emotionally skinny. So I'm looking at my relationships, spiritually, physically where are my relationships off? Where am I? Maybe having more chaos than is necessary. And so waking up every day to go, how do I need to lead myself?

And then looking across our other circles of influence. What I do with organizations is I help implement the GIANT system. And we do some other things as well, like strategic planning and succession planning, that sort of thing. But we use these visual tools to help people look in the leadership mirror, build a common leadership language that begins to scale across the organization.

So leaders who are first of all leading themselves and getting healthy, then need to be thinking about what's it like on the other side of me, for my team? What's it like in the organization? What's it like in the community?

Jim: What's it like on the other side of me? That is a powerful question. You gotta stop and gonna focus on that for a second.

What's it like on the other side of me?

Sorry, Interrupted you but that was like...

Jessica Rimmer: It's a million dollar question. It probably is one of the most transformational questions I've ever asked myself in my life. Because if we're gut level on the answer to that question, it depends. And you know on my birthday I'm the best version of me. Other days I might be the stressed version of me.

And so that Roller coaster that people ride with us is known as our reputation. And so if we want to have the kind of reputation that is - the Proverbs talks about our reputation, our name is worth rubies, right? Like our reputation is actually really important. It's not about our influence or status.

It's who are we and who we are is going to be some of the experiences that people have had with us. So if we are a roller coaster rider, we're loading the crazy train every single day and people are like they get that and they're modifying for the fact that we're not leading ourselves then every day.

We have less influence and less impact than we could just because we're not answering that question. What's it like on the other side of me? And Gut level, when I answer that question, sometimes it is a bad answer, and I have to take responsibility, but responsibility is freedom. It is freedom. Where we have responsibility, we can actually begin to make a difference and make a change.

Jim: So good. It is so good.

Martha: See? She can challenge you and you feel good about it. I love it.

Jim: I just got smacked upside the head and I feel really good about it. Dr. Jessica Rimmer, it's been amazing having you on iWork4Him today. We're so grateful. Thank you for being with us.

Jessica Rimmer: Thank you both.

Jim: Make sure you check her out online, all that in the show notes But solomonsa. com is Solomon Strategic Advisors check her out online and you won't be disappointed. Bring her into your organization. Find out what it's like to be on the other side of you.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host jim and martha brangenberg. We're Christ followers our workplace. It's our mission field. But ultimately iWork4Him.