Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What does that look like in your world? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Modern church culture tends to emphasize the importance and prestige of working in full time ministry as a pastor, foreign missionary, or the like. But here at iWork4Him, we want to help resurrect the original idea behind the idea of ministry. There seems to be a theological misunderstanding that the top jobs in the kingdom are a missionary and pastor. That's simply not true. There are no tiers in the kingdom. The body of Christ is made up of many parts.

None is more important than the other. If you ever feel unimportant in the kingdom of God, like who you are and what you do is on a lower tier while others are on a higher one, remember 1st Corinthians 12. God lets us know that each of us plays an important role in the body of Christ. Verse 18 says, Our bodies have many parts, but God has put each part just where He wants it.

Today we're going to focus our conversation on a fresh understanding of the importance of our work, no matter what that work is, in the bringing of the kingdom to earth and helping others to meet Jesus. Charlie Self joins us, I should say, Dr. Charlie Self joins us today as Martha and I talk about his new program called Discipleship Dynamics. And we talk about the fact that the world of theology tends to struggle with this tiering system. Charlie Self, welcome back to iWork4Him.

Charlie Self: It is a delight to be with you and a delight to see and share with a team, the two of you and your whole team, that I pray for with great joy. So thanks for letting me be part of this.

Jim: No problem. Charlie, where did this idea come from that there were two tiers in the kingdom, pastors and missionaries at the top, and then the rest of us who are supposed to support these top tier Christians with our tithes and offerings?

Charlie Self: It's as old as the fall of humanity. It's as old as the origins of every single culture, religion, including God's work in His chosen people, Israel. Now God does choose people. Let's be fair. In the Bible God chooses people through whom everyone else can be blessed and participate. So God chose Moses to lead Israel and he chose Moses and he chose others to do certain functions. But then the people of God almost like it sometimes when people are in positions that to do the spiritual stuff while they do the regular stuff.

So sometimes that kind of power comes from the ground up, with misunderstanding. Other times the people with those assignments, and we want to praise God for people that God does make pastors and evangelists and missionaries. We praise God for them. We praise God for authority in the church. But sometimes we can get a little too much in love with that authority. And so whether it's people, the laity, we call them or...

Jim: not on this show, we don't call them the laity.

Charlie Self: I'm having fun with you here.

 (laughter)

Charlie Self: In fact, it was even Pope John Paul and you can't get a more hierarchical view of church polity than the Roman Catholic Church, but he said the real apostolate of God's mission in the world is the laity.

In other words, most of history, most of the time, the Kingdom of God is advancing through the conversations of the laity, and now, no longer using that word, God's people. And guess where God's people spend most of their waking hours? They spend it at work. And so all through both biblical and church history, the advancement of God's kingdom has taken place through all of the people of God.

But this combination of people wanting others to be responsible, but also really until the emergence of Christianity, a very top down set of cultures made it a pretty easy thing for people to toil for the princes and the priests.

Jim: I think it's really a convenient misunderstanding because if somebody's really the super spiritual people then I don't have to work so hard in my relationship because I'm living vicariously through the super Christian, the pastors and missionaries, and I could just sit back and just show up on Sunday and get a little bit of weekends from the pulpit kind of deal. I think it's a convenient kind of a thing. You think that's what it is?

Charlie Self: I think that's part of it. I am heartened by how much it's changing. And I'll tell you, the biblical source for all of this is the fact that on the day of Pentecost, what I call the unveiling of the church, not the birth of the church, but her public presentation = in Spanish would say her quinceanera - the church is being presented to the world. What happens? All of the people gathered are touched by the Holy Spirit. All of them are empowered. And even though Peter preached the famous sermon, they're all empowered to go out. A few chapters later, they're all scattered and evangelizing.

Of course, my favorite part of the book of Acts is the story of Antioch. We read in chapter 11. We don't even know who the founding apostle was in Antioch. It just said they were first called Christians. And so we thank God for the fact that Spirit empowered women and men going out about their everyday life are the key agents by which God's work in the world has always taken place.

Jim: All right. You speak from a position of authority and knowledge because you got a doctorate, you've been studying this stuff. You study church history, you know this stuff, but I want you to, I want you to just relax a little bit, but I'm gonna challenge your theology a little bit. Okay.

Because what I want to know is you've preached in churches, you've had a church, you teach in seminary or university, you interact with pastors and missionaries all across the country and around the world, do you see a beginning of understanding pastors amongst and missionaries that they're not the number one Christians, that we're all on the same team?

Charlie Self: Yes, not just the beginning. I've been heartened for the last 30 years at the gradual and substantive growth of that understanding But what we have, instead of a hierarchy, you use the wonderful analogy of St. Paul, right, in Corinthians, of the body having many parts and each part fulfilling its function. I like to think of a whole bunch of different Venn diagrams all beautifully overlapping.

Jim: Charlie, nobody likes to think of Venn diagrams. What is wrong with you?

 (laughter)

Martha: Charlie does!

Charlie Self: Imagine, just imagine people in all different circles of life where God's placed them, whether it's arts, whether it's parenting, whether it's entrepreneurship, whatever it may be, the beautiful thing is they're all empowered by the Spirit to make a difference two ways at all times. So I'm agreeing with you completely. Number one, the work they do is inherently important and good. There is no secular work for God's people.

Jim: When you make good points like that, you got to just stop . Say that word again.

Charlie Self: There is no secular work for God's people. Romans 12, one and two, when Paul says to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, he's ending religion, he's ending this notion.

And I'll quote a theologian who actually makes sense. But too often we think of religion as sacred activity in sacred spaces at sacred times. Paul is shattering all of that when he says for our whole life to be a thank you to God in whatever we do. And Colossians says it even more clearly, verse 17. Whatever you do in word or deed. And Paul did not say whatever you do in the church. Whatever you do for the church. You are the church, and therefore, whatever you do in word or deed is done for the glory of God and the good of others.

So the work itself is inherently important. And then Mark Green from London, I loved his statement, the work itself matters, and the work is the front line of God's assignment to advance His kingdom in the world.

Jim: Now, Martha, when you and I committed our lives to full time Christian ministry as 13 year olds and then we met three years later as 16 year olds, this was a subject. This was an understanding that you struggle with, wasn't it?

Martha: It was because as a teenager, I went through this amazing transformation time in my family where my dad sold his business. We went to South America. We were there for a year as missionaries, but my dad was doing the work that he had done in his profession. So he was photographing in South America, in Venezuela, and then we came back to America, moved to where we met, praise the Lord. But then he was in a position of helping other missionaries communicate their story through photography.

I was trying to process this whole, what my dad was doing in his work was meaningful before we went on the mission field. It was meaningful while we were on the mission field, and it was meaningful when we came back from the mission field. I had such an amazing perspective of all of that, yet I still, as a teenager, thought that my calling meant I was going to end up on a mission field.

So I still didn't see that for me, it could mean my day to day. And we struggled with that as a young couple for a long time. Like, how do we live that out? I love to be an entrepreneur. We love the area of business. We love finance and sales. How does that translate for us? Do we build a business and then sell it like my dad and then go do it?

So that was something that I got to see. I was on the front lines of seeing it lived out in a healthy way, which is amazing. But yet still didn't know for sure how that was gonna impact us.

Jim: You know, Charlie, one of the things that Martha and I really struggled with when we were newlyweds, we were involved in a church, we knew we had made this commitment as 13 year olds to full time Christian ministry and after I got my degree and Martha and I got our first house, I enrolled in seminary because I naturally thought the next thing I need to do is get my seminary degree so I could go work in a church as a pastor, a youth pastor, what we're thinking. Because I have a teenage personality. I still do as a 57 year old.

And God stepped in our way and said, no, that's not what you need to be doing. And so we remained in our insurance career. And twice we did this and twice God said, no, very clearly he said, no. But this was a struggle because I felt second tier. I felt like my only job was to make money and give it to the church ministry so they could do the work of the gospel. And I just had a sales career and nope.

When I tried to communicate my frustration and my call to ministry, the pastors that we were working with couldn't help us understand that our call was entrepreneurialism. My calling was sales and connections and networking. And that, in fact, was our place of ministry. Charlie, how are people starting to gain this understanding when they go to church on Sunday? Are there more and more churches helping people understand this?

Charlie Self: Yes, they are. And there's several churches now that are featuring the testimonies of their congregants and they call it this time tomorrow. How will you be worshiping, serving, witnessing for God this time tomorrow? And a dry cleaner comes up and says, My business is so important. People have interviews, weddings, I'm helping the homeless, and this dry cleaner describes the work itself is important, and the number of people that know of his integrity ask him for prayer, ask him to share why he's so joyful. But that's just one example.

Other churches once a month are literally anointing with oil and laying hands on people in a different sphere of society. For instance, they took the medical field one month and everybody from the volunteer to the neurosurgeon, every kind of work involving medicine and healing people, stood and they were commissioned to go in the name of Jesus and bring healing and help.

Here's the other cool thing, though, in the midst of all this. They're also learning that all those supernatural gifts and all of those marvelous things we read about in the Bible in the life of Jesus, most of them took place outside the church, and they're taking place on the factory floor, in boardrooms, in different places.

Once you have no secular work, oh, the whole game changes. And let me share two words that are really helpful, that have been life changing in and through my ministry, but also as I receive this knowledge from others. And that is, all of us have callings that are more than our current work assignment. We all are given by God, first of all, the calling to love Him and make Him known, and then that general calling of loving our spouses if we're married, and our children if God blesses us with them, and then God gives us a specific sense of purpose.

Now, here's a cool thing. That can happen in and through a variety of occupations. So the work world's changing all the time, but a sense of calling to the kingdom and then bringing our character and our gifts to whatever work we're doing, that's a breakthrough because now my identity isn't only insurance or it isn't only the specific title I have, it's now I bring this to the world. And this is the work where I bring it. And so it's pretty exciting to watch that come together.

Jim: Charlie, I think part of it was as a kid, the great commission was go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of, okay... it was the go, but, and then we were told if you're being called to ministry, you should go. But then really in today's world, as they really have gone through deeper interpretations and translations, that it's really meant was, as you go.

Charlie Self: Yes.

Jim: As you go. And there's a big cotton pickin and holy buckets difference between go and as you go,

Martha: I just put that on our little sign out in our lobby. I put as you go dot, because that was really a big impact on Jim and I just recently, even just hearing that conversation, that it's, as we go, no matter where we're going or what we are doing. How are we living out and discipling others?

I want to just let listeners know that one of the things, Jim, the rest of our story is in our iWork4Him book. And we can never dig into all of that on any one show, and our purpose today is to talk with Dr. Charlie Self and to hear more about what he's going to share in just a moment with all of our listeners, but you can now get our book in a PDF form on our website. iWork4Him. com. Go to the bookstore and there we have it, very inexpensively.

And I just want to encourage you to go and download a copy for yourself so that you can get the PDF. You can actually get the paperback and the audio book as well. But we'll have all those links in the show notes for anybody. And if you're watching this episode, you gotta watch Dr. Charlie Self because he's giving thumbs up and things that are not audible in the recording. But you see it live, and I just, I love your encouragement in this conversation.

Jim: I think getting a copy of the audio book would be really important because you could fall asleep at the lullaby of my lilting voice.

 (laughter)

Jim: Let me ask this question. What is the impact on the kingdom and the spread of the gospel when believers think they're second tier, Charlie?

Charlie Self: Two things happen immediately. One is their work suffers, and that does not help our Kingdom witness. Remember, Jesus said that, we were the light of the world, and the people are supposed to see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. Those good works, primarily , our work, I want this to sink in, the good works Jesus tells us, cause people looking in, as it were, looking at Christians to glorify their Father in Heaven are most often seen where we work.

It's not just the volunteer work, praise God for it. It's not just the charitable donation, praise God for it. It's the good works we do as we work, or doing good at our work. And so this is really, so that's the first thing. The second thing that happens is that we lose courage in witnessing. One of my deep concerns for the body of Christ today is the lack of courage to, at the right time, to actually share the gospel, to actually invite people to consider the invitation of Jesus Christ to be their Lord, and their Savior, and their Friend, and their King, and their Boss, as it were.

Both things suffer, but when God's people are empowered, they go and they do their work well, and those divine appointments seem to occur with much greater frequency.

Martha: I keep thinking about the young couple Jim and Martha. And if we'd have met you, Charlie, what would you have said to us, knowing that we felt there was a call on our life, knowing that we are entrepreneurs, and how would what you have said helped to impact. Yeah, I don't live in regret, we learn and we grow as we go, but what would you have said to this young couple and what do you say to anybody listening that might be struggling with this that can help impact the kingdom?

Charlie Self: First of all, I would commend you for wanting to serve God with all of your heart. And I would urge you as a couple to seek God together, to enjoy God together, and then to begin to write down what God's shown you, about what each of you bring to the world and what you together bring to the world. And then begin to realize that through the business, through the entrepreneurship, whatever it may be, what I would do as your pastor is I would not just legitimize, I would celebrate, empower, equip, do everything I could, to make you love Monday.

Because the goal of our gathering on Sunday is that you're empowered for Monday. And let me tell you, that it was a venture capitalist of all people who looked me in the eye over 20 years ago, and he said, Charlie, you preach to a thousand people, and that's important. And thank you for preaching, and I need your input in my life. I need to know what the Bible says about what I do. But he says, I make a decision, and a thousand people have or don't have a job. Who's doing God's work in the world?

And he said it misty eyed. He said it with humility because he always sought in the companies he served to enhance and empower. He took his great commission and the empowering of the spirit seriously in empowering employees, empowering executives. So I would just be pouring all the gasoline on your fire I could. And we would be making sure the vocabulary is biblical.

Jim: We'll jump ahead because well, we're going to jump in. We're going to talk about your discipleship method that you've developed, but I have one last question because right now before we get to talk about your really great tool, there's 55 million approximately workplace believers today and 45 million Retired believers in this country. So a hundred million people.

And Charlie, based on our research, our several hundred thousand miles on the road and over 4, 000 interviews, less than 1 percent of them understand this. Less than 1 percent of them understand that their work matters to God, that there's supposed to be purpose in their work and that no matter what they do, it's there to glorify God.

And in retirement way less than 1 percent of them understand that. Retirement is just another stage in their calling and that their calling didn't retire when they did. And because they're not dead they're not done, that God still has so much for them in the retirement . Charlie, how the heck do we shift this ship, turn it around, and send it in the right direction?

Charlie Self: One church, one sermon, one song, one prayer at a time, one podcast at a time. We labor away in the grassroots. By the way your research and experience is confirmed by several others that I'm working with right now who were funded by the Lilly Foundation, funded by Oxford, funded by all these famous places.

Jim: Wait a minute. There was an opportunity I could have got funding to figure this stuff out?

 (laughter)

Charlie Self: I want to just validate what you've experienced with amazing women and men that I work with right now. And the percentages vary. Barna has done this work, others have, but it's too small a percentage. It's way under 10 percent in most cases.

And I would say this, we've got to get our biblical vision renewed and our theological vision renewed, and by the way, that can be done at 8 or 88 years old. That can be done with minimal education. We have got to be enamored again with the grand narrative, the great story of Scripture, and who our God is. We've got to get that into us and then realize that for such a time as this we're born.

I want to address one other thing you mentioned, which is dear to my heart. I did a faith and work summit address on faith and work for the rest of us in 2016. And I talked about the retirees, people with physical and mental disabilities, and the hidden service worker, the person who comes to church and worships with us, but that car is 10 years older. Those shoes have holes. It's a hard life. So I did these three groups of people.

And what was really interesting is all of the research, no surprise, supports the biblical contention that all of our days matter to God. And if one has the privilege, by the way, it's a very modern privilege. If one has the privilege of leaving a certain kind of full time work and waking up with more choices, it's a reassignment, not a retirement. It is a new season to serve. And you have choices. And I praise God for those who've prepared for that. That's a brand new notion in global history, by the way.

Secondly, the physically and mentally challenged have so much to give , to give in businesses, and then that hidden service worker toiling at something that's not always glamorous. And what I was trying to do with these, both these clergy and non clergy folks who believe the theology we're embracing today, trying to remind them it's got to not only reach clergy and non clergy, it's got to reach every culture, every class, every race, every geography. As one of my mentors said, if it's in the bible, it works in albania and alabama.

 

Jim: But all of this, is not really, none of it is new because 500 years ago the reformation was all about this, the eliminating the hierarchy. And it's just that there's such a deep need in our country, and i'm just focusing on the united states. I know that there's needs across the globe, but in our country, we desperately need believers to understand that their vibrant faith in Jesus Christ needs to be impacting everybody around them, whether they believe in Jesus or not. Because our world is falling apart. And if Jesus followers would just live and breathe like Jesus followers, no matter where they go, things would change.

And that's really not theoretical. Obviously not. The first 300 years of the church they overturned the roman empire without ever drawing a sword because of the vibrancy of their dynamic faith. Charlie, I love the conversation about that there's no tiers. So if you're listening to the podcast, just understand you are not a second tier citizen. If your job title isn't pastor or missionary, we are all in the same tier. There are no ranking systems in the kingdom of God. We have one God and we are his adopted children and what you do, no matter what it is, matters to him. Martha?

Martha: I just I love the conversation that we're having and one of the things that we do on a daily basis to help people with this concept is we have these one minute PowerThought that we supply to our listeners.

You can subscribe to the iWork4Him power thought and the link will be in the show notes. You can find us on your favorite podcast platform. It's just one more way to set that daily challenge and say, what am I going to do today for the kingdom? Whether I'm retired, whether I'm going to work, whether I'm unemployed, whether I've lost my job. I have the ability to honor the Lord in whatever actions I do today and how am I going to do that?

And the PowerThought is just one more way to equip ourselves to put on the armor of God and prepare for our day. And I just encourage all of you listeners to go and subscribe to that and to get that extra challenge, that extra, sometimes encouragement, sometimes a hit over the head, whatever it might be for the day, to help you to remember that you are important in the kingdom.

Charlie, we are excited about what you've been working on. This new discipleship model, 5D Discipleship Dynamics. How did this get birthed? Tell us about it.

Charlie Self: The book is called Life in 5D: A New Vision of Discipleship, just out this year, and it's available at discipleshipdynamics. com, and we'll share more about the tools with it.

It was birthed with a simple question over 13 years ago. Let me go back. It was birthed 30 years ago in my heart. But I was frustrated as a pastor with a lack of progress in discipleship. And I realized that we had reduced discipleship to duties and programs, and we had never thought about what's the outcome. What are we aiming for?

People would give general phrases - the image of Christ and the glory of God. But no, what does it mean? And so fast forward as I continued on that journey, learning from wonderful sisters and brothers. 13 years ago, myself and Johan Mosterd were given a blessing because we were starting this faith work integration at the seminary, and I want to thank you for your hard labor, because it bore fruit in a variety of seminaries in the last 20 years, and it's bearing fruit in a lot of places.

But we asked this question, what does it look like to be a healthy disciple on Tuesday at 3:00 PM or Thursday at 10:00 AM? And Jesus is not saving souls. He's redeeming whole people. And this is the most important theological undercurrent, is that the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus communicates something really profound. God so loved that He gave, but God so loved in Jesus that He forever became one of us. And, in the risen Jesus, we see our future. So if we're embodied people, and God's made us to dwell with Him and to do His work in the world, in Genesis and Revelation, we are dwelling and doing.

By the way, just to hopefully not discourage anybody, but our eternal future on the new earth and in the new heavens is going to involve doing.

Jim: Isn't that hilarious? Because everybody thinks we're gonna be sitting around playing harps on a cloud. No! God gave us - if work was a gift, we're going to be working in heaven, and people like what? We're gonna be working? And of course we're be working, but we'll be walking on golden streets. So that'll be cool

Charlie Self: No bad bosses, no high taxes, but with that in mind, we started listening to literally hundreds of leaders, and we asked the question what are the... hebrews 13: 7, consider the outcome of their way of life. By the way, the Bible is not unclear about what a healthy disciple is. They love God. They love their neighbor as themselves. They are fulfilling their calling. They're doing today well. The Bible's not unclear. They're forgiving. They're patient. But we wanted, we just did a lot of listening.

And here's the cool thing. Over a period of about five years, we've developed, we're on the fourth version of the assessment, and we have a college one as well. And the kids ones are not far behind, but what we're excited about is we realized all five dimensions of human life are part of Jesus's redemption - our spiritual life with God of loving him and loving the church and loving prayer, loving the word of God , our emotional life. Can I give a shout out to Peter Scazzaro and others who've reminded us in the Bible?

Here's another zinger for you. There's no difference between emotional and spiritual maturity in the Bible. They are inseparable. They're hand in hand. You could be given a gift as a day old Christian. That doesn't mean you're a mature person. It means you have a gift. Thirdly, loving our neighbor as ourselves, healthy relationships are the norm. But then we added two more that were not in the discipleship literature, and this is why we keep talking together, rejoicing together, weeping together, praying together.

We added vocational clarity. Do you know your gifts? Do you know what God's called you to do? In both a general and specific sense, do you know the dignity of your work? And then we added a fifth that was very controversial. We call it economics and work. And that is the everyday participation in the economy and at the workplace. Are you an asset at your workplace? Are your ethics excellent? Are you a steward of the environment? And by the way, we have outcomes like sharing the gospel with others and mentoring others.

But we started, as you can imagine, with scores and distilled it to 35 outcomes in these five dimensions, and we created an assessment where the believer can get a snapshot of how she or he is doing. Here's the other cool part. We also created it so spiritual leaders, pastors, small group leaders, directors, they can invite people to take this and they get a dashboard on how the group is doing without violating confidentiality.

Jim: There's just so much, but we're really out of time. But I want to make sure that people get connected with this tool. Charlie, two things You said you were willing to give away five copies of your brand new book so listeners if you want to get a copy, I've been, I just got my copy on Monday. So just a couple of days ago and there's so much in here. Discipleship is so needed. Okay, Jesus had that idea. It's not a new idea. It's so needed. And the way Charlie and Johan and Jamie came together in this book, it just makes it make sense. It's just whole life discipleship.

If you want to copy this book, if you want to start transforming the discipleship in your local church community, just email Martha at IWork4Him. com, Martha at IWork4Him. com, and she'll arrange for you to get a copy of a book from Charlie. Charlie, on your website you said DiscipleshipDynamics. com, is that it?

Charlie Self: Yeah, that's where you find out about the assessment, you'll find out about how to use it, you'll find out more about the book. And we just really want to serve folks and, I just, I know we're almost out of time, but it was a children's pastor that inspired us 10 years ago. He said, I get it. I feel close to Jesus. I know what I'm good at. I feel good about myself. I'm doing my chores for Jesus today. I'm getting along with people. In other words, if an eight year old could get it, then the rest of us can, too. And I just want to say that we've done our best to give a lot of depth, but we've done our best to make it accessible.

And by the way, when we get discipleship clear, evangelism is much easier, because now we know what we're calling people to.

Martha: So powerful.

Jim: Check out Dr. Charlie Self online at DrCharlieSelf. com, DrCharlieSelf. com, DrCharlieSelf. com, DrCharlieSelf. com. So great conversation today, Charlie. Thank you for being with us.

Charlie Self: It's my honor and pleasure, and we'll continue to pray for one another and continue to believe that every one of God's people can feel empowered on Monday.

Martha: Amen. No tiers in the kingdom. That's something we want each one of you to really understand. And this powerful conversation is the kind of conversations we have every week on iWork4Him. So make sure that you connect with us on social media, whatever your favorite platform is, we are there with this content for you. So just search for iWork4Him. I Work the number 4 him on any of your favorite platforms or let me know if we're not on one of yours, we're joining truth social and rumble as we speak so new ones are coming. We know that God has a platform where you are hanging out and He helped people design it so we could use it. And you can always watch that interview on youtube and rumble.

And we always put the links in our Facebook page. If you're old school, Facebook and LinkedIn, right? We love it there, too. We want you to follow us and because God has messages and stories through the guests that we have on our show. We do this for a reason and it's for you.

Jim: You've been listening to the iWork4Him radio program, which is also a podcast, which is also just having a conversation with you. We're your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace is our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.

Outro: Did you know that God has a calling on your life? It's true. He's called you to bring Jesus to the world. For some that may look like a pulpit or a foreign mission field, but for most of us it looks like a construction site, a cubicle, a hospital, or a classroom.

Wherever it is that you work, live, volunteer, and invest, that is your mission field. To learn more about integrating your faith into your work and retirement, check out our books. iWork4Him, She Works for Him, and I Retire for Him by going to iWorkforHim. com. iWork4Him, She Works for Him, and I Retire for Him by going Thanks for listening to the iWork4Him podcast with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg.

Please visit IWorkForHim. com to learn more about connecting your faith and work, to join the iWork4Him Nation, or subscribe to our weekly blog. You can also follow us on social media at iWork4Him to stay up to date and meet our guests. If today's message spoke to you, please subscribe, rate, and review the show on your favorite podcast platform.

Your review will launch more workplace missionaries across America. That's at iWork4Him and online at iWork4Him. com. I work the number for him. com.