Intro: Welcome to the iWork4Him podcast. I'm Todd t Riley, producer of the iWork4Him Radio Program, the Voice of the Faith and Work Movement. Our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What does that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: This episode of iWork4Him was previously recorded for the Christian Leadership Alliance's Outcomes Conference podcast, where leaders come to invest the best of what they know into other leaders.

Martha: Remember, if you have influence over just one person, you are a leader. Together, let's listen to this podcast and learn more about leading God's way. Enjoy!

Jim: We have an incredible conversation coming up today with Beth Guckenberger, co-Executive Director with Back-to-Back Ministries. We're gonna be focusing on how Beth and her team lead and strive to create a culture of belonging at Back to Back Ministries.

Beth Guckenberger, welcome. Thank you for being here.

Beth Guckenberger: Oh, it's my joy. Thanks for having me today, you guys.

Jim: Well, we are excited to be here.

Martha: Thank you for being, like I said, you know, I feel like Beth, we've gotten to know you over the years because of your involvement with the Christian Leadership Alliance.

So I'm so grateful that we get a time to dig in a little bit deeper, in a new way for a lot of the Alliance members. So before we get started talking about your leadership role and your perspective of what God is using you to create a culture of belonging at Back-to-Back Ministries, tell us how you keep your faith strong and your leadership Christ-centered.

Beth Guckenberger: Hmm. Oh, I mean, when I think about my leadership strong and Christ-centered, I think fellowship, accountability, having people in my life that tell me the truth, that help me grow in areas of self-awareness, to make sure that my outward facing faith looks like what God's doing as he's working out my faith inside with fear and trembling.

Making sure that in the organization, even though I have a box at the top of the org chart, there's not so much power, distance or uncomfortability within the culture that I lose that ability to understand the impact walking in the room. It, you know, I, that I have or, or being able to be vulnerable in front of staff members.

And so certainly as my own faith rhythms of study and prayer and fasting and worship are all unfolding, I want to that to translate into the workplace and I think good accountability and fellowship helps bridge that gap for me.

Jim: So the theme of this year's Outcomes conference in 2022 is I Belong. As a Leader, what have been the keys to creating a culture of belonging for your team at Back-to-Back Ministries?

Beth Guckenberger: That's a great question. You know, I think before I understood it was a good thing to do, you know, 25 years ago when my husband and I moved to another country and began the work that we oversee today, I was desperate to belong in a country where I didn't speak the language, where I didn't have any relationships, where I didn't even have understanding culturally of all the things that were happening around me.

And I watched, at that point, the Mexicans with whom we were living among, create a culture of belonging for us. And then you know, we eventually over time took some of the best learning we had prior to our, our missionary journeys, combine them with the best of what we learned from the host culture we were, we eventually lived in for 15 years and then added that together with what I was reading in New Testament early church understanding about what that looked like to create communities of belonging as they were building the church. And that kind of blended together. To form what eventually at back to Back, we call our cultural values.

But it's the way that now that we're in different locations around the world, we talk about, you know, this way of operating, of interacting with each other as staff of inviting people into our own communities of belonging. It's not a Nigerian thing or an Indian thing, or an American thing, or a Mexican thing.

It's a back to back thing, which I hope represents a Jesus kinda thing. So we actually have a lot of intentionality about how we onboard people, how we do ongoing education with existing staff. So they remember the things that helped us create communities of belongings in the first place. And, and we actually have pretty good Checks and balances so that if something kind of gets outta whack and suddenly there's a, a sector or section of the organization that's not reflecting our cultural values, there is good pressure that gets applied among peers before it ever has to kind of rise to a leadership level.

Martha: You know, that's so interesting that you just said what you said about the different countries, because a lot of us think, you know that it's all driven by the culture of that country. Yet there's some common things among believers that go beyond that.

So can you unpack that just a little for me, cuz I know I'm assuming there's influence by the countries that people are in, but how, how you still look at it from a biblical perspective?

Beth Guckenberger: Yeah, I mean like, here's just a funny example. In Spanish, there's an expression that when more people show up to dinner than you were planning on, you just add more water to the beans. And really what that says is, you know, always make room at your table for whomever comes to the door. And so that is certainly a Mexican way of thinking, but it also reflects a Jesus way of thinking. And so we wanna make sure, even though that's the lens it would be seen through in that country, that we help tie that back to some kind of biblical idea and we can teach that idea to another culture who may be has more of a scarcity mentality and says we gotta take care of our own and make sure we take care of our own. Well, we're not, you know, we're gonna kind of batten down the hatches. To be able to say to them, well, this isn't a Mexican thing. This is a Jesus thing, and this is how we can open the doors and trust that God will take care of who he brings to our tables.

You know, certainly we have issues in the United States. We have a work here in the US. When we're talking about belonging in the US sometimes we're talking about racial issues and making sure that people have a sense of of equity inside of a space and that they have opportunity within a space.

But that's not uniquely American. We have those kinds of issues in the work we do, for example, in India, where maybe they have some caste system issues. And the lessons that we learn from India, we can apply in America or America, we can apply in India, but really what we're standing on is not those cultural trends and best practices.

They're really a Jesus principle that we may then flesh out through the lenses of their culture. So it does kind of all go back to making sure we understand how Jesus created spaces of belonging and then just emulating those as best as we can.

Martha: So you talked about the times where you have to apply a little pressure when things are kind of off balance. So talk about those challenges when you're trying to create a workplace culture of belonging. What kinds of things do you bump up against?

Beth Guckenberger: I mean, sin.

Jim: WHAT? You guys work in a Christian ministry, What do you mean there's sin?

Martha: Humans, right?

Beth Guckenberger: Our own sin nature longs to be recognized or longs to be defended or longs to be you know, justified or all the things that, that we do simply as breathing, but that don't, that don't represent the spirit-filled nature that we have.

And so I mean there's all kinds of ways in which that peer to peer pressure happens. We literally train staff on how to have healthy conflict with each other. How to have confrontation in ways that are God honoring. Cuz we want that to, we wanna create spaces where those kinds of hard conversations happen.

We find really God in that friction. And, and when someone talks to you about a comment that you made that came across in a way probably you didn't mean it, or maybe you did mean it, but you shouldn't mean it. But that's actually a really loving act. Nobody's out to get you that way.

You know, we say, you know, good news out, bad news up. You know, we don't, we only really get the, the kinds of conflicts that find themselves growing or are unresolvable, they're at the field level. But I mean that's, there's, there's a lot of intentional training.

We have a learning management system that we call back to back learn that staff take classes on to reinforce our DNA to get good tools in their hands, that they take in their heart languages at their own pace gives us common language. So like for example, we use one of the personality profiles called the Disc assessment, and we talk about how you, we don't wanna weaponize people's Disc assessments.

Like, oh, you're being so whatever, or, I don't like that you're being so whatever. Like, these are tools to develop self-understanding. And the more we grow in Christ, the more that we actually can overcome our weaknesses and, and stand in our strengths. Yeah. But those personality differences can help. Those personality profiles can really help create common language so that you can address those conflicts.

Jim: Weaponizing the disc profile. Love that. Listen, we're gonna take a break from our conversation today with Beth Guckenberger. She's with back-to-back ministries. We'll be right back.

Break: Do you wanna make an impact for the Kingdom of God without quitting your day job?

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Jim: Hey, welcome back to the Outcomes Conference Podcast as we talk today with Beth Guckenberger. Beth, we're talking about Back-to-Back Ministries and how you created a Culture of Belonging.

Martha, you got a question?

Martha: Yeah, I do. For people that have not ever engaged in Back-to-Back Ministries or heard about it, you know, Okay. You've given us a really great insight into the culture without even really knowing what you do. So tell us, give us your, your elevator talk.

Beth Guckenberger: Yeah, back to back ministry serves orphans and vulnerable children.

And I'll just say once upon a time, I just loved that child in isolation. But over time, God has grown in my heart a passion for their, you know, vulnerable families and their at-risk communities and their local churches. So we have a much more holistic approach than ever before as we serve vulnerable children in at-risk communities in many countries around the world.

Jim: Beth, I love that. I love that mission. Now, if you were to identify two core principles that guide you daily as a leader, as a Christ following leader, what are those?

Beth Guckenberger: Oh, that's pretty easy. Faithfulness and availability. You know, we stand in a long line of people who are ill-equipped and immature and under-prepared for the assignments we have been given over time.

And I have found that God has continued to honor our sense of faithfulness to him and availability. And in the beginning I thought it was a weakness that our assignment, our calling, seemed to outsize us. And now that's what I hunger for. I actually look for assignments that are bigger than what I am capable of doing on my own. Even 25 years later when I have all kinds of, you know, fancy experiences and accolades, I still tell Jesus, get me in over my head.

I like it when I can't do it on my own, where I don't have enough wisdom, discernment, you know, self-control whatever I need and I need him. And I've watched him honor the fact that we've cried out to him over and over and over and over and over again.

Jim: Hmm. So, in, in living out those core values, faithfulness and availability, how does listening to the Lord play into your life?

How does listening play into your role as a leader at Back to Back ministries?

Beth Guckenberger: Yeah. It's like breathing, honestly. You know, people say oftentimes we'll get asked like back to back turns 25 this year. And so we've been getting a lot of press interviews like, where do you think back to back will be in 25 years?

And I'm like, everything in me wants to say the biggest numbers I can think of. Like, we're gonna be in a hundred countries helping a million children with a billion dollars. And, and if I said something like that, maybe someone would respond, wow, that's incredible vision. That's actually not vision, that's just coming up with crazy numbers.

I think vision is listening to the Lord and taking the next step and and trusting that whatever he chooses to build, it's exactly what he wants. It's not vision to try to architect something that builds a kingdom that he never had planned in the first place. And so I think listening is the most critical act we can do as a leader.

Martha: You know, I just wanna point out before I ask you this next question we're gonna transition to your book, Throw the First Punch, but most leadership type podcast conversations do not go the direction of this conversation. Like, you know, so it's kind of funny. It's like, oh, I, I wanna be in over my head.

So I love that because that is a God size, you know task at hand and that you're being so willing and open-handed with it. So, I wanna talk about your book. So you have this new book called Throw the First Punch. Tell us about it quickly, and what core takeaway do you hope that the readers are gonna get when they pick up your book?

Beth Guckenberger: Yeah, for sure. I took on an assignment that outsized me, speaking of what we were just talking about, in the beginning of 2020. And as everybody was shutting down, a church in my city, a very large church, lost their pastor two weeks before Easter and asked if I would step in as an interim while they found somebody permanent.

And I mean, I'm not a pastor. I've never been a pastor. I've never aspired to be a pastor. But I am open to whatever God is asking of me. The answer is always going to be yes. And so two weeks into that assignment, I was frustrated in a staff meeting, about 85 staff in the room. I had an agenda. It wasn't going the way that I was thinking it was gonna go, and I finally pushed the agenda away and said, listen, I'm not the only person in this room with an agenda.

We have an enemy, and he has an agenda to disrupt God's kids doing God's work in God's house. What do we think his agenda looks like? And they started to brainstorm the kinds of things the enemy wants to do, like create fear and distrust and selfishness and, and I said he doesn't have any new tricks.

Everything he's ever done before, we've already seen. And the Bible tells me in Ephesians 6 to put on my armor. And he tells me in 1 Peter 5 that there's an enemy out there roaring around like a lion. When I sew those teachings together, it makes me feel like I'm supposed to put my armor on and wait for the lion to get me.

And that makes me feel like I'm on defense. And if I already know all the things he knows how to do, why do I have to wait for him to come get me? I'm gonna go out there and throw the first punch. And the book is really about how to be spiritually aggressive and offensive. And what happens when, instead of, you know, closing the gates and try not to let any of the enemy or the world influence us, it's about let's go storm the gates of hell and take back ground that it was never his in the first place.

And yeah, it's a book about spiritual warfare as plain spoken as I could write it.

Martha: Wow. And, and, Well, if you write like you speak, I can imagine that people won't wanna put it down because, I mean, I feel like your personality, your gentleness yet strength is for me anyway, it, it draws me in and goes Yeah.

If Beth says that, that, and I love that it's from scripture, then I can be empowered by what God has to do.

Jim: Is there an audio book with your voice speaking those things?

Beth Guckenberger: There is, there is, yes. I read the whole thing so you can listen to me do all 12 hours of it.

Jim: Very cool. All right. What pushed you to write this book? I mean, what really kicked you in the keister to say, I'm gotta get this done.

Beth Guckenberger: A couple of things. One I feel like I, I realized that about a quarter of everything Jesus talked about was a kingdom we cannot see. And so I was like, if I think about is a quarter of what the Capital C Church is talking about the kingdom, we cannot see?

No, I don't think that. I think we've often left conversations about spiritual warfare to some of the fringe communities in our faith, and I'm like, If I don't wanna give undue attention to the enemy, but also by ignoring him or not talking about him, the latest Barna research is something like 65% of Americans aren't even sure that the devil's real.

By letting him kind of walk around we end up metabolizing his ideas, his schemes in ways that we end up then assuming is our fault and that there's a lot of shame that comes with that. And there's all kinds of sin I can do all by myself. I don't need the devil to push me to do it, but when I do choose to sin, Then I'm literally handing a bullet to the enemy that he can shoot me, my marriage, my family, my, my ministry with, and I wanted to just empty that chamber so that the enemy has less ammunition to come after God's kids.

And so, and I think that's what probably pushed me to do it.

Jim: I love that. Empty the chamber. Give him some blanks. He can't shoot you with those. We're talking today with Beth Guckenberger, right here on the Outcomes Conference Podcast. We'll be right back.

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Jim: Hey, welcome back to the Outcomes Conference podcast.

We love that, that you're listening in to a conversation we're having with Beth Guckenberger today from Back-to-Back Ministries. Beth, what's the website if somebody wants to check out Back-to-Back Ministries? What's the website?

Beth Guckenberger: Sure, it's, it's just back and the number 2 back.org. Back 2 back.org.

Jim: Back 2 back.org. All right. When you consider back-to-Back Ministries today, what are you most enthusiastic about in terms of pursuing your mission and impact?

Beth Guckenberger: You know oh, it's a quick story about in 2012 my husband and I were at the Orphan Care kind of annual conference that happens and we put together this little tiny niche workshop that said, How to take your startup nonprofit to a mid-size organization.

So it has started with our savings account and the two of us, 2012, we were about a hundred staff, maybe $5 million. And the process of growing had been, you know, full of all kinds of cautionary tales and hard lessons. We just wanted to share those with any other startups. We made 20 copies of our handouts, prayed 10 unique organizations would come, we opened the doors and 400 people walked in. And we were completely overwhelmed and stood on stage and said, Hey, anything we've ever done, any HR policy board manual, like you name it, training, Bible study, like you can have anything and just take our logo off it and maybe it's not exactly what you want, but it'll get you farther down the road.

And within a year our organization doubled in size. Cuz you can't break that principle of when you give away what God's given you, he gives you more to steward. So when I think about what I'm excited about is we continue to collaborate and partner with people all around the world. We recognize there's just no way we know of the 2 billion children on the planet, 50% of them have experienced trauma, or a billion children have experienced trauma.

There's approximately 163 million orphans around the world. I can't scale big enough ever to be able to meet that kind of demand, but the capital C churches are everywhere around the world, and I've told everyone I can stand on a stage and tell, but Church is the free foot soldier. Like we actually want to go into hard things and hard places with kids who are vulnerable.

So just figuring out how to mobilize and scale through others and connect and collaborate and partner and pioneer missional gaps. Those are the kinds of things I'm excited about as we think about the future.

Jim: When you look at the collaboration that you're doing worldwide. And yes, Martha, I'll let you jump in here, are you seeing it work? Are you seeing an ability for like-minded organizations, organization with similar missions for you guys able to, to find synergies and economies to scale?

Beth Guckenberger: Yeah. I mean, not everybody's has an appetite for it. Because you have to sometimes leave, you know, your egos and your logos at the door.

But when it works, it's actually so beautiful and it gives back to you more than you gave away. That's the weird part of God's economy. And, and I don't just mean in dollars, sometimes it's an understanding, sometimes it's an impact. Sometimes it's in that spiritual kind of blessing that you can't even, you can't even really count.

But yes, I, I have seen that and I've seen a growing interest in it over the last decade. Again, we've been in this space 25 years, but I've seen more and more stories, success, stories of collaboration, partnerships in the last decade that give me a lot of hope for the future. And Covid, there's a lot of terrible things that happened as a result of Covid, but I think it's probably given us more of an of a desperation to help kids around the world.

Martha: And you know that the world is watching that collaboration and seeing, you know, it's success when it happens and the outcome of that. So I just encourage you in that space to keep on doing it. So, as we close out this podcast, Beth, the Christian Leadership Alliance is a place where leaders come to invest the best of what they know into other leaders.

So you, Beth Guckenberger, what leadership idea or thinking would you like to share as an investment in those listening to the podcast?

Beth Guckenberger: Hmm. What a powerful question. It's probably part two to the faithful and available answer that I gave earlier. It's that God doesn't count the way we do.

You know, we get really excited about dollars and campaigns and heads that are sitting in pews or going on trips or opening our email, click for rates or like we just naturally count in a, in a way that the world honors. And in that way of thinking biggers better, we make a lot of strategic decisions.

I just am not sure that that's the way that God always works. I think sometimes I can recognize like, I mean, this is a silly story, but one time we did this passion play at Easter in another country. We're passing out invitations and it was a giant endeavor. And at the end of the day, as a result of that huge endeavor, we met somebody who ran an orphanage and who we've been in relationship with the last, for the last 15 years.

And I can remember that night when I went to bed thinking, God, did you do all of that because of this introduction needed to happen? Is this actually the big deal that happened today? And I think oftentimes, certainly he does more than one thing at a time and he doesn't waste a single thing. But if God's asking you to do something and it feels counterintuitive because it's not big, not flashy, not impressive you might actually be right in the center of what he, what he wills and I, I think that's where we just wanna be as leaders, is right in the middle of what, what God's asking of us.

Martha: Amen.

Jim: I love that. God doesn't count the way we do. And we do, we do put so much function on numbers and, and God, just, his number one goal for us is to be one-on-one with us. That deep, that depth of our relationship. Thank you Beth Guckenberger for sharing a little bit about Back-to-Back Ministries and just sharing from your heart.

We appreciate you. Thank you very much.

Beth Guckenberger: Oh, thanks for having me. You guys. What a treat.

Outro: Did you know that God has a calling on your life? It's true. He's called you to bring Jesus to the world. For some that may look like a pulpit or a foreign mission field, but for most of us, it looks like a construction site, the cubicle, a hospital, or a classroom, wherever it is that you work, live, volunteer, and invest.

That is your mission field to learn more about integrating your faith into your work. In retirement. Check out our books iWork4Him. sheWorks4Him, and iRetire4Him by going to iWork4Him.com/bookstore.

Thanks for listening to the iWork4Him podcast with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg.

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