Jim: This episode of iWork4Him is brought to you by SaferNet. Online SaferNet dot com. You've tuned in to iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What does that look like in your workplace? Well, let's find out right now.

Jim: So here's a great idea. Take all the wisdom of a local community church, those 55 and older, and pile them all in one room with themselves, separate them from the young people, and in fact, encourage them to move to Florida, Arizona, Texas, and California to hang out with people their own age. That's what I call a cataclysmic disaster impacting Christians retiring in America.

Today's show is going to have a little different focus. If there's ever been a soapbox that I've climbed high upon, this is it. Let's encourage Christian retirees to stop moving away from their families and the communities they love, thinking that they'll attain peace and contentment in some resort town in the South.

Why? Because it's all a lie. Bruce Bruinsma is here today from the Retirement Reformation to direct this conversation and start turning the tide on the destruction of our communities because of how we treat our chronologically superior folks within the Church of America. It's got to stop and it's going to stop today! Bruce Bruinsma, welcome back to iWork4Him.

Bruce Bruinsma: Hi Jim and Martha. It's so good to be with you virtually. It's always good to be with you in any set of circumstances because God has really knit our hearts together to be able to address the issue that you began to unpack and outline there. And so looking forward to doing that today and in the next, the next podcast also.

Martha: Awesome. You know, what I love about this, Bruce, is that Jim and you incredibly complement each other. You know, Jim is a, is a hard hammer sometimes, and you have had a few more years of experience and as far as articulating this conversation about where we're going to go. And so I just love hearing the two of you share your hearts because you are so well aligned, but, you know, not everybody looks at things from the same way. And so you guys both give great vantage points to this discussion.

Jim: So I want to make sure our audience knows. So iWork4Him, our podcast has been around for a decade. We've done a little over 2000 iWork4Him podcasts. Well, in 2020, that infamous year, Bruce and I launched iRetire4Him, a podcast totally dedicated to the those up and coming retirees or those already working their way into retirement, to focus really on the issues facing Christians who are living out their faith in retirement. And so we've got almost 100 episodes of that out there, but we wanted to invite Bruce back on. We had Bruce back first time on our show 2017, almost six years ago, hearing about the Retirement Reformation.

We want to bring Bruce back on and reintroduce the audience to this idea. That our retirement, well, let's just get into the conversation, you'll figure it out. Bruce, why in the world is the American dream of retirement a lie?

Bruce Bruinsma: Well, you know, in so many ways that as the church and as Christ followers, we have bought into the cultural definitions of a variety of things. And, and this happens to be one of them. Matter of fact, what culture says about retirement, just to remind us, is that it's, first of all, our culture tells us that it's one homogeneous period. It's all downhill, mentally and physically. Then we die, and the goal is to jam as much leisure as we can into that intervening period.

There's probably seven lies in there, but we have, our culture has brought that to the church, the church has adopted it. We have adopted it as Christ followers, and the result is we've got 48 million Christ followers who are Approaching or in those retirement years that when we ask them, what are you going to be doing in retirement? They come up with some version of nothing. It often can be translated as leisure only

Jim: Bruce, if you would move your mic in just a little bit closer. But Martha, one of the things that I think is important for us to share with the audience, we did a 20 year cultural experiment living in Florida. So we've seen what it looks like when people pack up everything they have and move far away from their families and live in communities full of people their own age. What did we see?

Martha: Well, we saw a lot of things and it was interesting because we were, I don't know, younger than middle aged at that point, and so we didn't really realize we were stepping into this environment so full of retirees, but, you know, bottom line they were looking for, like Bruce said, a time of leisure but finding themselves very far away from family, with other people, not really with purpose, not really with you know, things that gave them true satisfaction. You know, they would go and play and they would go and do these different things that they've been waiting all their lives to fill their free time with. And then I think, I think a lot of them would say, you know, in the big scheme of things, it fell flat.

Bruce Bruinsma: Well, there's a couple of things that, that often those retirees don't remember or don't think of or aren't aware of and have to discover often in a painful way. But the fact that first of all, that what the world calls retirement can be a 30 year period.

Think about that, a 30 year period. And so the planning horizon for someone who is 65 is all the way up to age 95 and we don't really think about that because we haven't had experience with it. Now we're starting to see it with our parents and some grandparents, but it's still a whole new experience for us and the things that can happen.

You know, when we we think about moving to Arizona or to Florida or to some parts of California, here's the reality that most people forget, is that when you move, two things happen. Number one, you take yourself with you, and so it's not a panacea for all the things that well, once we move, it'll all be different. Well, here's a clue. No, it won't.

Secondly, is that when we move, we leave our friends behind. And so now we've got another whole environment that we need to work with. And so there's all these surprises that show up, and as, as we've talked, and as you know, that when we come to a transition period, and it's a surprise, we react emotionally, and when we react emotionally, we usually make some pretty dumb decisions.

When we can know what's coming and we can plan for it, then through God's power of the Holy Spirit, He can help direct us into what we have to go. But that's kind of a general framework, Jim and Martha, of what, of what the retirement generations now are looking at. As they contemplate and as they go out for a walk at night and say, what are we going to do next?

Martha: You know, I'm thinking here as a listener who maybe is hearing this conversation for the first time. I get a little on edge thinking about this because it's like, what do you mean? This is what everybody does. This is what we're used to. This is what we've heard. And you're telling me that it's not, it's not what I should be doing?

And of course, I just want to encourage the listeners to hang on till the end of the conversation, right? We're not telling you to stay at your corporate job until your last days. You know financially preparing for retirement and calendar planning for retirement are two very different things.

And that's the conversation we're having today. So I just want to encourage people, stick with us. This is a good conversation. Don't just get uptight like I'm feeling sometimes when we start this conversation and going against what people have always thought to be true about retirement. But that's why we're having the conversation.

So, I want to just take a minute, you know, Jim, you and Bruce have had this very special relationship for over two years. You've been co hosting a podcast called iRetire4Him that you referred to, and I just want to make sure listeners know. I'm going to put a link in the show notes where you can go and find those shows, whether they're for you to consume or for you to be sharing with someone else that you know is in a position where they're either preparing for retirement or in retirement and can use some encouragement and some challenge in their own lives. I want to encourage you to listen to it. This last series that you guys just did on the graying, you know, that had the issues with the gray. You know, the gray series time in your life and the, the threats of suicide and isolation and loneliness.

Powerful conversations. So everyone I would just encourage you to go subscribe to that podcast. Share it with somebody who could really use that right now but that's the connection that Jim and Bruce have and what they bring to the table.

Jim: Yeah, you can find that podcast anywhere online. I retire the number 4 him. I retire the number 4 him and that'll take you to the podcasts, are all out there.

All right, Bruce, most people know what they're retiring from but as we've discovered over the last 100 episodes of iRetire4Him, most people don't know what they're retiring to.

Bruce Bruinsma: No, it's the, the whole process is in some ways a very strange one in that people are looking forward to and maybe have prepared for financially or, you know, for a long time, see their parents going through and they know that there's this period coming up called retirement.

And for those that are transitioning from career into that retirement phase, and they've got a to do list, they've got a bucket list, they've got the things that they're thinking about. Oh, it's going to be so great when we do this. But when I talked about a little while ago, the fact that it's 30 years.

One of the issues is, and Martha I think you kind of alluded to it, is that after a year or two, the to do list is done, the bucket list has been significantly impacted, and now what happens is that there's a hole in their soul. And when there's a hole in their soul, what is it that's going to fill that hole?

It's a little bit like we're here waving a flag saying, hey, there's some problems coming up and we want to alert you to them. Call it prophecy if you wish. And to help you to be, to not only think about it, but be prepared. I mean, just take a moment and help your audience because there's, there's a word and an idea that is so helpful.

In these transition periods and in the, probably the most shocking transition, is the one from career to retirement, but you had some vision of that perhaps when you became empty nesters and all of a sudden, all of those dynamics changed. Well, this is another kind of a version of that. And so there's a word for it, and that word is called liminal, L I M I N A L.

And so a liminal period is any period of transition of any kind where it's fairly clear, as Jim was laying out, where you've been, but totally unclear about where you're going to go. And in that period, if you don't have some clarity, if you don't have some appreciation that, in fact, you are in the transition period, then what happens is anxiety, depression, fear, all of those negative emotions take over your conversations and your thinking.

Whereas when you are aware, that on a positive sense, when you know that a liminal period is coming and you can prepare for it, there can be joy. There can be great expectation. There can be all of these things that then will then transition you to into that next stage. And knowing that there's at least three stages in retirement, it's not something we're going to experience once and it's one and done. No, it's not. It's one and started.

Martha: So much like when people, you know, they know what they're retiring from, but not retiring to, what about this whole concept of they plan financially for the retirement, but they're not planning for their purpose in retirement? Why do you think that is, Bruce?

Bruce Bruinsma: Well, because I think all the financial services industry, the insurance industry and everybody else, whenever it is that they're talking about retirement, they're talking about two things. Number one, will you have enough money? And number two, are you going to have enough fun?

Those are the two issues they talk about. And so where we are continually from every source, we are bombarded by that thought process. And then when we take and we start reading through our Bible, we read through the book of John and you go, wait a minute, this doesn't sound like what it is that I'm hearing over here.

And so you've got this dynamic tension that has a spiritual component to it, as well as an emotional component to it, as well as the financial component to it. So, you know, I was in the financial services industry for 30 years, and I will tell you that the money is the least important, unless you don't have any.

If you have done some proper planning financially, that opens the door for all of the other activities that can fill that hole in your soul that I was talking about. And again, as you were, as you were talking about with what, with meaning and purpose, leisure has value, but meaning and purpose is what it is that gives you true satisfaction and frankly, longevity.

Jim: And there's so much we could talk about this. In fact, we have talked about it over a hundred episodes of iRetire4Him. And I encourage you to go out there and listen to that podcast. We want to give you a little tickle on what we talk about.

Bruce, one of the things that I've seen, and I think it's a crime, is that churches tend to put all the chronologically superior folks in the same room to hang out with each other. Why do you think that is?

Bruce Bruinsma: Well, I, I tell you the issue that you're raising, Jim, is what we call siloing. And siloing can happen in lots of different ways. But both in our society and in our churches, we have put people into silos by age, with the assumption that, that we relate best to people of our own age, and we forget totally about the value of intergenerational relationships.

So, then in the context, and I hope this isn't too blunt, but you'll soften it for me if it is. You know, what churches tell seniors is two things. Number one, don't stop giving, and secondly, just don't be grumpy. Just stand aside, because we have important people that we need to deal with, and by implication, it's subtle, it's not meant with any negative intentions or anything else, but the, the result is actually there, what they're really saying to us as seniors, is you are now useless. And our role is to entertain you, and for you to be entertained and not to have a role in the, in what God has called you to do in the kingdom. Jim, as I've heard you say, you know, if you're still here, you're not done.

Jim: I say it like this. If you're not dead, you're not done.

Bruce Bruinsma: I love it. I mean, that is, man, that is so right on and, and for your listeners, there'll be some of them that'll go, you know, that's really right.

Jim: That's exactly right. I think it's so important. We got to keep moving on, but there's so much of this that we've unpacked on our, on our iRetire4Him episodes. Martha, next question.

Martha: Well, you know, I just want to know, why do you think or how do you think that we can stop this cataclysmic disaster of Christians retiring and checking out?

Bruce Bruinsma: Well, first of all, I think the Change in the Christian culture, the change in the - that's why we call it the Retirement Reformation. What are we reforming? We're reforming the way that we think about these issues of retirement. And so that's the reformation that needs to take place. Let me give you a real life example.

Yesterday, I went and took a tour of a group home of a ministry that those group homes are for, and the ones here locally are for male addicts. And so in this group home, there are 10 male addicts aged 18 to 35, and the program that they are in is 12 to 18 months. And so when I dig into them and say, why is it 12 to 18 months?

Was because we have to change totally the way they think, therefore the way they act, therefore the way they serve. And it takes 12 to 18 months to do that. And so, the change in the way that we think, and when we are so totally bombarded by, you know, the message that we talked about before. When the reality of that message is actually supported unintentionally by the activities in the church, man, we got a bunch to do to come together in community and say, oh, there is something more.

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Bruce, I want to just have this final segment of the show today, just talking about what have you seen on the highways and byways in America as you've traveled promoting the Retirement Reformation, which people can find online Retirement Reformation. org. Are Christ followers flourishing in retirement?

Bruce Bruinsma: Well, there are some that are obviously flourishing. There are some that are still in that enjoyment phase and they're almost euphoric about the freedom and the things that they're able to do and the trips they're able to take and the way that they're able to interact.

And so they're euphoric about it. There's another group that is, is kind of at a, at a point of a new realization where there's a point of tension and they're going, huh. Yeah, well, this has either been pretty good or not pretty good, as the case may be, but it just seems like there's something more. So they're in that questioning stage of, of, I don't know if there's anything wrong, but there's not enough right either.

And so they're really searching. And then there's the group that has found what God has called them to do, and they're really experiencing that deep meaning and purpose while they're enjoying leisure and other things also, but they're also coming together in community with their family with their spouse with others in their community as they are working together.

And, and perhaps we'll have an opportunity to talk about, you know, one of those examples called wraparound grandparenting, but maybe in the next segment, we can break that out a little bit. But when you find the thing that, that really gets you excited, wow, life is different.

That's the reason why at 82, you hear me choked up a little bit about the subject that we're talking about, because God has given me a passion. I'm passionate about it. And boy, that gets me up every day in the morning and at 82, he's got a call on my life that we're doing our best to fulfill.

Martha: He really does. And, you know, that's why we want this conversation to start with the iWork4Him audience because we are working, but someday there's a future where financially that might change. And so what are we going to do with that? And how are we going to live out our purpose? So, Bruce, how can Retirement Reformation help Christ follower retirees and the pre retirees be ready to live out their life with purpose in those retirement years instead of just assuming they're going to be on vacation all the time?

Bruce Bruinsma: Well, first of all, you know, it's like anything else, you need to be informed and to be informed, like, like when you were. I remember as a seven year old, I was living in the Netherlands with my parents and was going to go to the first grade for the first time in a country that I didn't speak the language and so on.

So the key was, I need to know how to get there. Secondly, I needed to find, her name was Jafra van Doorn, the teacher. And Jafra van Doorn was absolutely wonderful of welcoming this young boy who didn't have a clue as to what he was doing. And so that allowed me to step into it.

What was the next stage? The next stage was to kind of learn the language and a new culture. And so as a young man, I was able to learn the language in a fairly short period of time and be able to adapt to what was that culture. And then as I adapted to that culture, I learned how I could be an integral part of it, and could interact and engage with other young people, with other kids, as well as adults in that environment.

So it's a constant, new revelation, but willing to step forward into that. And then to be guided by the power of the Holy Spirit. Also, you know, take a look at our website, RetirementReformation.org and all of the support materials that are there to help you step into what will be the next stage of your life journey.

Jim: Yeah. Next week, we are going to go a little bit more detail on how listeners can find purpose in their retirement. But before we go today, Bruce. Can you highlight what God really wants for us in our retirement?

Bruce Bruinsma: He wants us to find joy in his love for us and to express that in practical ways that represent him to the unknowing world. And to the world that, that is living with all the issues that affect our culture. And so that's his heart desire, and that we walk into his heart desire when we both experience his love, are connected with him, and become that neighbor that he talked about.

Martha: So very good. You know, we're going to continue this conversation like we alluded to, and I just want to remind our listeners that, to make sure that you don't miss a single episode, including the next one that's going to come out. I just want to encourage you to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and leave a review on Apple. It really helps us to be able to get more people to know that there's a conversation like this happening.

And you can even share it with a friend. So your review helps us and we love you and we thank you for following along on this journey.

Jim: And if you really don't have a favorite podcast platform, you can always just sign up for the weekly blog that we sent out from iWork4Him and that also sends you the link to the latest podcasts.

So Bruce Bruinsma, thanks for being in here today from the Retirement Reformation, online at Retirement Reformation dot o R G. We look forward to our conversation next week. Thank you, Bruce.

Bruce Bruinsma: God bless. And thanks.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace is our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him!

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Did you know that God has a calling on your life? It's true. He's called you to bring Jesus to the world. For some that may look like a pulpit or a foreign mission field, but for most of us, it looks like a construction site, a cubicle, a hospital, or a classroom.

Wherever it is that you work, live, volunteer, and invest, that is your mission field. To learn more about integrating your faith into your work and retirement, check out our books, iWork4Him, sheWorks4Him, and iRetire4Him. By going to iWork4Him.com/bookstore. Thanks for listening to the iWork4Him Podcast with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg.

Please visit iWork4Him.com to learn more about connecting your faith and work. To join the iWork4Him Nation or subscribe to our weekly blog. You can also follow us on social media at iWork4Him to stay up to date and meet our guests. If today's message spoke to you, please subscribe, rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform.

Your review will launch more workplace missionaries across America. That's at iWork4Him and online at iWork4Him. com. I work the number 4 him. com.

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