Welcome to the iWork4Him podcast. I'm Michael Miracle producer of the, iWork4Him radio program, the voice of the faith and work movement. Our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What does that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the mouthpiece of the faith and work movement, where your host Jim Martha Brangenberg.

Martha: Hi listeners. It's so great to be with you today. I just wanna remind you that on our website, iWork4Him.com. You can sign up for our blog weekly email. That's a way where we stay connected with you and, and let you know about new things that are happening places and what God is up to. All kinds of news. So love for you to connect there on iWork4Him.com.

Jim: So are you called into ministry? Tom Lutz was, he felt the call in his life. So he got a job teaching at a church. Then one day he was given a chance to work in the marketplace and bam, he knew his calling wasn't to be in a church, but in the marketplace.

But where does a workplace believer go to be discipled to understand their vocation as their mission and their workplace as their ministry place. Tom, lets couldn't find anyone doing vocational discipleships. So he decided to write a book on Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work, a guide for all who make disciples along with Heidi unru Tom Lutz put together a practical guide for equipping every workplace believer for their calling into their very work.

Today. We're gonna hear some of that backstory and some tidbits on what Tom's latest book has inside. We of course want you to get a copy of it and we're gonna be giving away a copy of. During the show today, Tom Lutz, welcome to iWork4Him.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Hey, it's great to be here with you guys,

Jim: Tom, we agree with Amy Sherman's statement that says her blunt assessment that says discipleship that doesn't equip people for the activity they spend 40% of their waking hours doing - that's not discipleship. Where do you see most discipleship happening? And what's it focused on?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Yeah. Well, of course, one of the challenges, reasons for writing the book was certainly when I went to seminary, I was taught subliminally that you disciple people as church members, that what's spiritual, what's important. What God cares about is what happens at church. And frankly that leaves an awful lot of people who get up every morning and go to work without any real sense of how to be a Christian in that context. And so what's happened, you know, the reason for writing the book was I think God laid on my heart that until we get every pastor, every Sunday illustrating their, their passages from the workplace and applying them to the workplace, people aren't really gonna believe that God cares about their work.

Jim: Oh, so true. So true.

Martha: So let's just remind us again, first of all, as we have this discussion, the name of your book and who you actually, I would like to hear upfront, like who do you want to be reading your book?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Right. Yeah. So it's called Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work, subtitle, a guide for all who disciple.

It was, it was interesting. So when Heidi and I first started writing it, she took my doctoral dissertation, which is on this topic. A lot of the classes I've taught on this topic and so forth, and we put together an outline and the basic, the outline, the target was the worker. When we first wrote.

But then as we got talking to people and getting them, you know, there's a lot of books written for the worker, a lot of really good books out there on faith and work. When I did my doctoral dissertation you're to write a literature review on the literature, around your dissertation. And when I went to search for it, there are zero books.

Zero doctoral dissertations, talking to people about how to disciple someone who works outside the church. And so consequently, we changed the thrust of the book. The, the, the book is designed for anybody who either vocationally or avocationally disciple someone who's primary on one whose primary calling is outside the church.

So it could be Christian coaches, could be Convene chairs like myself, could be you guys. Could be campus ministers, discipleship leaders, anybody who leads a men's or a woman's discipleship in other, how do we talk to people about the spiritual relevance of their work?

Martha: Excellent. Thank you for explaining that because I think it just helps give us context.

Jim: So, all right. So imagine for me a world where followers of Jesus were discipled to have clarity around their kingdom purpose. Yeah. To have church members who recognize their workplaces, their ministry place imagine discipling people where they minister at their work. Imagine God's image bears enabling the world to flourish. What does that world look like?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Well, listen, if you think about, you know, when, when we get to, when when we finally get to heaven, we'll still be workers. Right? Right. It will be still in this physical world. The only thing that won't happen in heaven is what we call ministry. There'll be no remedial drug counseling or crisis marital counseling or soup kitchens, but there will still be meaningful work of image, bearers, you know, building God's God's world.

But in my doctoral dissertation I did some qualitative research on a group of men that were in a discipleship group that I led. Our church is renowned for discipleship worldwide. Randy Pope has written several books on one called insourcing around the methodology uh, of discipling. And so this group of men came to me and said, Hey, we would like to do the methodology, the proven methodology.

But we'd like to change out the content and study the theology of work. And so coupling that powerful quality of discipling methodology, which we have a chapter on in the book with the message that, that your calling is to the workplace. These were already highly mature. In most cases, elders in their churches.

But yet their spiritual maturity just exploded when they began to realize that God, that, that one of 'em said, God invaded all of my life. So, so, and so that changed dramatically. The, the, just their sense of spirituality. It blossomed so well,

Jim: But let's go back to your pastor, Randy Pope, then, you know, you said he he's passionate about discipleship. You've written books on discipleship. When you, when and approached him and said, but Randy, you're not discipling for people for going to work. You're not discipling workplace believers who are ministers at their workplace. How did he respond to that?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Get me in trouble here.

Jim: Hey, if Randy listens to my podcast, Randy, it's good. He's just sharing your story.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Yeah. uh, I would say, well, in this sense, you know his, his point was that, that there is foundational content that needs to be gotten, which is more elementary than understanding your call to the workplace. These, so these men had been trained in that elementary content in my dissertation.

I, I recommended not that we change the first three years of the program, but that we supplement it once they've reached that level of maturity. The next level up is when they begin to explore what is my mission specifically,

Martha: You know, and understanding what my mission is through that lens. When you're reading scripture, it can have a whole different look. God has filled the scripture with examples of workplace, but we, oh yeah, we just didn't, I think for a long time, we've not had that lens for it. So adding that layer right. Can open the eyes of so many people that are involved. That's excellent.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Well, one of, one of the things I suggest in the book was that the problem is we've been taught to disciple church members, not image bearers and consequently, we read the Bible in a church centric lens. But, but the Bible isn't written to church members, it's written to image bearers who also happen to be church members. Right? So church is a small portion of our overall calling. And when you, you be just begin to read the Bible differently when, when you think about this passage is written to someone who who's got a fundamental call, you know, to, to create abundance, fill the world, to cultivate potential that God placed into it. And to subdue and otherwise incomplete and dangerous world for the benefit of mankind.

Jim: Yeah. Vocational discipleship. I, I encourage you get a copy of the book, Equipping Christians for kingdom purpose in their work by Tom Lutz will be right back with more conversation about vocational discipleship and how it really applies you and how you gotta get a copy of this book and read it yourself first, and then find a way to incorporate into a conversation with maybe the elders of your church or a group of people that you hang out with in your small group. We all need to be discipled to understand that our workplace really is our mission field.

You're listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim, Martha Brangenberg will be right back,

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Jim: Hey, welcome back to iWork4Him. We're talking with Dr. Tom Lutz about his book, Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work. So important. This is a book we'd like to get into your hands. Tom. Are you willing to give away a copy of the book today on the show? Are you /are you willing to do that?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Uh,

Yes I am.

Jim: fantastic. Fantastic. Fantastic.

Martha: Call you on the carpet on this.

Jim: I love that. Thank you very much. Call our listener line 8 6 6 7 1 3 96, 75 8 6 6 7 1 3 96 75 and request a copy of Tom's book, equipping Christians for kingdom purpose and their work. It's all about vocational discipleship. Martha?

Martha: Yeah. I just wanna ask this question, you know, Tom, as part of your story, you left the teaching church ministry to your calling in the marketplace. And I'm curious how that was received by, you know, both, both aspects of that, the church and the marketplace.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: You know, that was really what began, I think began my journey to what culminated in the book 40 plus years later.

So as a young man, I. You know, I'm I'm you can tell I'm not shy. So I'm comfortable in front of groups. You know, I, I, I was never timid of leading and so I had lots of, of, of men who I respected basically say something to the effect. If you want to serve God, you'll become a minister. I was a new believer young person in my late teens.

And so that came, you know, it came to mind. Yeah, I wanna serve God. So let's do that. So I went off to university of Maryland have a degree in Greek and Latin cuz I was planning on going to seminary. So I figured I'd get the Greek behind me, went on to seminary. I loved being in seminary, loved the academics, but I almost quit every semester.

Because they always talked about having a call to the ministry. And I just didn't. I never had, I loved being there loved the academics. So the president of the seminary was the father-in-law of my home pastor. And whenever he got wined that we were gonna quit and come back, he'd come full, full, full press me.

Anyway, so the, the, the gist of it is I, I didn't finish that. I went, started the church in inner city of Baltimore. Because at least if I was gonna be a pastor, I was gonna make it an adventure. But then as Jim, as you started out by saying a couple of friends were starting a business, they came to me and they said, we'll, we'll pay, be able to pay you a little bit more and give you the flexibility to do your pastoral work at the same time.

And I tell my pastor friends after several years, as a pastor, God called me to the ministry and that ministry was in the marketplace. But the specific answer to your question It was several years till I felt comfortable that God didn't frown on my decision.

Jim: So, so let's talk about that workplace story. Who discipled you to know that your business with 1800 plus employees was a ministry? Who helped open that paradigm to shift that paradigm for you?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Yeah, several, several individuals. One I mentioned the book is in the acknowledgements in the book. Harold Wolford was our senior senior partner very godly man, a man who clearly understood well, well, not the subtleties of the theology. He understood that God called him to lead people. And he mentored me to to do so I was kind of the designated theologian of the group, right? So in other words, cuz I'd been to seminary, they all figured if there's a Bible question, go ask Tom.

But I also think what discipled me was I did for six or seven years, I was bi-vocational. So I was, when I was writing a sermon, I would be interrupted by a sales. Or interrupted by an employee coming in or interrupted by a vendor stopping by. And so my whole mindset as I was developing discipleship material, as I was developing sermon material, I, you know, I looked around and what were the applications in the illustrations?

They were in the workplace, right. Just naturally came to me. And then it, so it just, it just became the natural way. I thought everybody did it that way. And the average pastor, what they do is they do the same thing, except their environment is not at work. It's in church mm-hmm right. So they relate to what we have in common, our hobbies, our family, and our church, but we don't have work in common. And consequently, they don't apply to, or illustrate from the workplace.

Martha: I'm gonna ask kind of a, a, a segue. So how, when you look at the, the, your congregation that you were preaching to, that you were teaching, and you didn't realize that you were doing it differently than others, but you were using workplace examples.

When you look at that group of people now, what kind of difference do you see in them possibly over maybe a, a typical church that isn't using those kinds of examples?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Ooh, that was a long time ago. But I just, just had a kind of a the, the pastor. So I was I was the founding pastor, but then we had a student pastor who was high school friend of mine finished his seminary when he was on staff with us.

He stayed there 40 years. Yeah, he was, he retired two years ago, 40 and we had a, a little bit of a reunion. So I got back to, to see with some of the key. Young people that I had discipled at the time. Sure. A lot of 'em came to work for me. Which was interesting. But I, I, you know, I, I think what you find is I don't know if you know the Barna research, but Barna's research indicates that somewhere around 27% of people in the pew are what they call integrators, people who have a sense of God's call for their workplace. What's interesting about that. And it was true of these people. They're more engaged in church. They're more likely to attend regularly. They're more likely to give more generously and they're more likely to interestingly enough, share their faith in the workplace than the people who don't have that integrator sense.

Jim: Well, I that's, I agreed with Bara's research on that, but I wanted to interrupt there just for a second, because I think his numbers highly exaggerated. I don't think there's 27% of Christ followers out there in their work that are integrators. I no, never seen any indication of that anywhere, maybe at your church because you as a pastor were an integrator, but boy, I don't see that in the marketplace today. 27%? We'd change the world!

Martha: We pray for that!

Dr. Thomas Lutz: We're working towards that. Well, that, that's sort of the reason for writing the book is, is again, I, the only way to get that number up to 90% is if every Sunday. I, I heard a voice from the Lord one day it's recounted in the book until every Sunday, from every pulpit. Every sermon is illustrated from and applied to the workplace.

The work's not done. People, people won't believe it unless they hear their authority up in the pulpit in their church, constantly emphasizing their call to the workplace.

Martha: That's that's such a great statement and bet we can pray towards that. Yes. Pray towards that. So, Tom, your whole process of discipleship is built on three core questions.

Why does every disciple need to seek the understanding that comes from knowing the answers to those questions? And they are, who are you, what is your purpose and how will you fulfill your purpose? Right. So let's talk about that. Why does every disciple need to understand that?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Well, the first, the first one is pivotal because it's, it's coming to understand themselves as an image bearer. Right. And to understand that they were put on the earth a very physical earth by a God who cares fundamentally about the physicality of it. I say that typical person, when I say spiritual thinks. Nonphysical. Mm. When I, when I say redemption, they think exclusively sharing the gospel. And when I say heaven, they think disembodied because that's, that's the church centric model of spirituality.

So you gotta start with that. You gotta start with, Hey, you were created when on the sixth day, the image bearer was put in the, in the garden and God said, it's now very good. So now that the coworker is in my world, it's, it's, it's improved. And he gave him three instructions. Number one, it's empty. I want you to create abundance.

That's the first one where fill, we use the term, but fill means more than have babies, used to create abundance. Two, it has infinite potential placed in it by an infinite God, therefore cultivate that potential. And we'll be doing that into eternity trillions of years. We'll never exhaust the potential that God put in the world.

And then third it's dangerous and incomplete. You need to subdue it. You need to wrestle the power of wind or the power of electricity or the power of water and cause to flourish. So that's your main job. You are, you are called to create a flourishing world, and that's what it means to be an image bearer.

Then the second question is really then important is if you believe that, what is your particular role in that? So a question I've come to ask, that's very powerful in a group, a group of people working outside the church, what would happen if nobody did what you do? What would happen if nobody did what you'd do.

Ask, ask that to a group of people sometimes, and they begin to realize that, wow, the world wouldn't be the same. So a couple examples I give from, from having taught in the past one is a trash collection company. What would happen if nobody collected the trash? Be terrible. We'd all be dead.

It'd all be dead. Another one I use - a CEO said, well, we make fasteners. So in the construction arena, fasteners are things that latches or hinges or you know, drywall connectors, any number of things that holds things together. And he just started laughing. Cause if you think about, when you're driving up to the store this afternoon, look around you.

There's not a single thing that stands up that doesn't need fastners. So without fasteners, we're living in caves and cooking over open fires. And so you see that question then. So if, if God wants this physicality to flourish, it's gonna flourish when all the image bearers do what they're called to do.

So the Billy Graham association is a great association, but if nobody collects the trash, everybody's dead, no need for a gospel preachers, right? The two in mosaic work together. Yeah. Then when you've got the person to the point where they say this, I, you know, this is what, this is why God put me on this earth, then getting them to plan it, hold themselves accountable to that's.

The third question is how will you fulfill your unique calling?

Jim: When we come back, lots more time, lots talking about his book, Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work. You can get a copy by calling our listener line, or of course getting one online at Amazon - Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work.

8 6 6 7 1 3 96 75 8 6 6 7 1 3 96 75. And you could check out Tom online: visionmarketplacedevelopment.com. That's a website where you can find out more about Tom. I'll be right back with more from iWork4Him.

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Hey, welcome back to iWork4Him. As we're talking with Tom Lutz about his book brand new book out, Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work. It's all about vocational discipleship. It's all about discipling people to understand the significance of the calling to their workplace. Martha, we wanna make sure we send people to Tom Lutz's favorite place online.

Martha: Yeah. So Tom has shared with us his Facebook page for vocational discipleship. So go to Facebook and look just type in Vocational Discipleship and follow that page.

And it sounds like there's gonna be a lot of great content there that I think all of us can enjoy and get something from. So, Tom, thanks for sharing that with. Sure. So let's talk really practically, how can we get vocational discipleship started in whatever our sphere of influence is today?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Good question. You know, it, it's, there's a lot of resistance on just the level of church staff around you know, how, how do I put this politely? There's almost a sense of if I talk about work, they already spend too much time at work. We'll take 'em away. But the Barna research that we talked about - I, I agree with you; their numbers may be high - but what what's undeniable is that whoever the integrators are, are in fact more supportive, more engaged in their, in their church than not.

Jim: Because they're more well rounded in their faith.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Yeah, well, they recognize they need more.

Jim: So why is there such a resistance amongst those paid four walls, church staff, people. Why are they, so - why is this such a big deal? Because there is. It's church pastors seem to be, seem to be like resistant to this whole connection of faith and work.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Well, and of course that's, that's the reason for writing the book. It's why I went and did my dissertation was to really find out what the truth about this is.

And I, it's a simple statement, but, but when I went to seminary, I was trained to disciple people to do what I'm called to do. There's a word we talked a lot about in the book called ergon, E R G O N a Greek word. It's occurs two places that I, I specifically would look at Ephesians 2: 8-9.

You've been saved by grace, not of yourselves, not gift, not of works lest any man should boast. Then verse 10 says for you are God's,you are God's masterpiece created in Christ Jesus for ergon agathois - good work. Work that's good. The word ergon basically means what one normally does as a job.. That's its first and foremost meaning. In church centric speak, it becomes works of ministry. Right?

And so it just, it truncates it down. It's not a big expansive world. And the other one is Ephesians 4. He's given some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers. Why? In order to prepare the people of God for ergois deacaneois - work that serves. Right. And so that's what I'm trying to get across is if you're called to disciple people, you're called to disciple 'em not to your calling, but to their calling.

Jim: That is fantastic. I love that. We just heard a sermon about Ephesians 4:11 through 13. And how in verse 12, a comma in the initial king James version almost 500 years ago said kind of separated that for the teaching of the saints, for the work that they do, it separated them.

And so interesting. And it made it feel like like their job was to teach them to be just like them, but not for their work that they do.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: I wasn't aware of that. That's interesting.

Jim: Yeah. If you go, yeah. It's I wish I had it right it in front of me. I'd read it, but it was, it's fascinating to know that there is a resource out there now for us to promote vocational discipleship across the country. And the name of that book is Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work. How can your book make all of this easier in our local church where we're involved?

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Well, it, it it's a how-to book, you know, we've all been to the conference on faith and work, the speakers get up. We pat each other on the back, how clever we are to understand this theology of work.

But what I, what I discovered, as I mentioned, I was doing my dissertation and I started doing some research in the marketplace. I think you've read it. It's very practical. It comes out of, you know, 40 years of doing this. So I, I I, I, I'm a Convene chair, so I've got 24 CEOs that I work with around, you know, their calling to lead their company.

I've done a lot of discipling. I've seven children. So. You know, now 14 grandchildren. So I, there's not much I haven't seen and I've just paid close attention to, to like some of the questions which when you ask them brings enlightenment to people and, and it's all in there. The stories of how to use them shrink, wrapped, ready to be put into practice.

Martha: And that's such a beautiful thing. So being able to have a resource available that God has really given you a life of experience and training, I think you have such a, an incredible vantage point in time in the sense that you've been in the four walls church, in the marketplace, and you see the beauty of that integration in all of our life. And that's something we've been talking about for nine years and it sure it, it is. But yet there's just so much ground to cover, but having a how-to book, like I love how you said it's all shrink wrapped, ready to go.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Read the chapter and you can use it next week in the, in your Bible study!

Martha: Excellent.

Jim: The name of the book, Equipping Christians for Kingdom Purpose in Their Work, a guide for all who make disciples. Tom Lutz. Thanks for being at iWork4Him today.

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him!

Dr. Thomas Lutz: Did you

Jim: know that God has a calling on your life? It's true. He's called you to bring Jesus to the world. For some that may look like a pulpit or a foreign mission field, but for most of us, it looks like a construction site, a cubicle, a hospital, or a classroom, wherever it is that you work, live, volunteer, and invest - that is your mission field! To learn more about integrating your faith into your work in retirement. Check out our books. iWork4Him. sheWorks4Him and iRetire4Him by going to iWork4Him.com/bookstore.

Thank you for listening to the, iWork4Him podcast with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg.

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