Intro: While retirement is generally seen as a time of relaxation and self focus, God calls us to love, serve, and help others for a lifetime. He has been preparing us for this retirement season, literally our entire lives. In retirement, countless Christians enter a state of spiritual dormancy not knowing how they are called to have an impact for God's kingdom.

The Retirement Reformation seeks to encourage and empower the 50 million Christians approaching or in retirement to embrace the calling God has been preparing in them. When the world says it's time to stop, you can begin to have your greatest impact. Welcome to iRetire4Him, the mouthpiece of the Retirement Reformation, where our goal is to journey from retirement to reformation so you can say, iRetire4Him!

Jim: Reaching out to the 50 million Christ followers in America who are already in retirement or are fast approaching. You've tuned into, iRetire4Him, mouthpiece of the Retirement Reformation. I'm your host, Jim Brangenberg, along with the founder of The Retirement Reformation, Bruce Bruinsma.

Check us out online. Please do this. RetirementReformation.org. RetirementReformation.org, and you could also check us out on Facebook, but check out all of it. If you're just tuning in to our podcast, check out all of our past episodes. We've got over 70 all there as encouragement to you and fast approaching retiree or somebody that's already into retirement to help you, encourage you in living out your faith as you walk through those retirement years.

Today we begin part two of our three part series on ageism. Because ageism affects everyone among older people. Ageism is associated with poorer physical and mental health, increased social isolation and loneliness, greater financial insecurity, decreased quality of life, and of course premature death.

And as we continue our series on ageism today, we're gonna ask the question on how does this ageism impact our world? We believe how we see ourselves as directly related to the messaging we absorb on a daily basis. If that messaging isn't from a biblical worldview, that honors and values of participation of retired folks, that message can be harmful.

To help us gain a proper understanding on ageism and how it affects the world around us, Bruce Bruinsma from the Retirement Reformation is here once again to add his personal insight and his expertise on the subject. Bruce, I'm not calling you chronologically superior, but you do have a few years on me, but I'm not calling you old cuz that would be ageism.

Welcome back to iRetire4Him!

Bruce: Well, thanks Jim for, for beginning to realize what ageism means and how insidiously it gets into our conversation.

Jim: Well, you'll remember though, I'm the one that brought it up a couple years ago - hey, we don't talk about old people anymore. We talk about people who are chronologically superior cuz that's not near as offensive. And it's true. The clock ticks. Chronologically superior. All right, sorry. Alright, Bruce, why are, why are we talking about ageism? Tell the audience why we're doing that.

Bruce: Well, we talk about ageism and I think in your introduction, you shared some of the real downside of, of our perception of ourselves being minimized, destroyed, challenged, and the results that happen from it.

I think it's true at any age, but it's really particularly insidious during what we call the retirement years. One of the reasons is because we have the most time, we have the most experience, we have the most wisdom, and so we ought to be at the peak of our relational powers. We should be at the peak of God's wisdom being expressed through us.

And because of ageism, which is the systematic and systemic minimizing of capacity and personal value, it takes those things that God has built into us and actually minimizes them. You mentioned loneliness, for example, which in, in the world of retirement is, is probably the very center of the negative issues that can come as, as a result of that and the putting down of our ages.

Let me just give you some examples. You know, just in the world we, did a whole series on working over 60. And one of the things we talked about is that there are a lot of people that they retire and then they kind of think about it and say, you know, I really enjoyed my work. I like the people. I'd like to go back.

And the barrier that comes says, Well, no, not with these words, but you left because you're retired and now you're too old. Another one. Again, I have a friend of mine who's 62. and he's looking for a new job. And it's tough because in the conversations of, of the application, even though they're not supposed to ask about that, the age is there and for no apparent reason, he's not selected.

The way that we as a society unfairly privilege one age group over another. On the other hand, you got a positive one and that once you had 55 or 60, you get a discount at the store. And you know, that's a plus. Viewing older people as being out of touch, less productive or stuck in their ways.

I think the I think the technology is one of the things that has differentiated older people from younger people. And younger people say, you know, well, grandpa, he just doesn't know how to do that. And when you say someone doesn't know how to do that, that also means they're not capable of learning how to do that. They are less than, and so it creates barriers.

Jim: I don't know, Bruce, my dad is almost 90, and I've been trying to teach him how to use his iPhone for five years. I'm not sure. It just seems like I just, it just doesn't make sense. , Sorry, I just, It's the iPhone thing. I know. It's, it's the iPhone thing. Okay.

Bruce: Yep. I understand. On the other hand, I'm 81 and I probably know more about technology than than a bunch of folks that are 20 years younger than I am.

Jim: There's no question about that.

Bruce: So, it's also what are you interested in and what are you willing to give yourself to, to do it? But then the society then takes those stereotypes and turns them. And the, and the negative leverage that comes from that is really hurtful and it's culture's way of guiding our pathway in life rather than God guiding our pathway in life. Whether you know how to use an iPhone or not.

Jim: Right? It's a blanket application of something that may apply to one person, but it doesn't apply to 30 or 40 million.

Bruce: That is right. That is right. And so we we, we become aware of ageism through culture. We then apply those stereotypes to, to the people that we know. Hey, we talked about often, you know, this is really kind of blunt, but you know, what does a church say to older people?

Jim: Hey, why don't you go be in your own small group with all your own people?

Bruce: Absolutely. Oh no, they say one thing first, Don't stop giving.

Jim: Oh, yeah, .

Bruce: Yeah. You can't forget that. They're aware enough to know that that's critical. But then the second one is, you know, in the, in the vernacular that I use, just don't be grumpy. Stand aside. Don't, don't stop any of the really important work that we have to talk to these young couples or others about Jesus. When in fact, the older people are leaving the church in droves because the, the inherent message is you don't have value.

Let me just add one more thought. Talking with someone the other day, and they were in charge of the senior ministry at a very large church, and I said, "Define your program" to him. And he kind of, he kind of looked away for a minute and then he kinda looked at me and, and he says, Well, to be honest, it's two lunches a month and one trip a quarter. I said, so, where is the interactivity between the generations following what it says and everything from Job to Psalms to, you know, to lots of New Testament verses. Where is that happening? And there was a pretty long silence and finally he said, Well, to be perfectly honest, it's not.

Jim: Mm. And we'll post the name of that church on our - No, we're just kidding. We're not gonna do that. . But, but, but what, what you just described there, I have seen and observed as Martha and I have traveled across the country in thousands of churches, and that's why we're talking about ageism today.

We need to recognize it. We need to step in front of it. We need to help cure, to cure it within the body of Christ because it needs to start here so that it could then impact the greater culture. But the bottom line is somebody who's 80 has a whole heck of a lot more wisdom than somebody who's 40 or even 56. And, and, and that's, we, we tend to undervalue the wisdom that just comes by living on planet Earth. And, and that is so missed in our society today. It it just amazing.

Bruce: And let me just add one more. The negative piece to that is that when, that, when you are that 80 year old and you are being told in these ways that in fact you do not have value, that makes you hesitate to think about sharing the wisdom that God has given you. Unless you've got a personality like mine that I don't care, I'm gonna do it anyway. But, but for most people, that's hard to do. And so they, they shrink back into their own age group, their own shell, and you have what we call, you know, the, the decreasing size of your community and that then leads to loneliness. And we could talk about that for another week.

Jim: Well, and when we come back we're gonna, we, we've got an interview. We're gonna hear from Saskia from the Netherlands, part two of our interview with her. And when we come back at segment three, we're gonna talk about institutional ageism, interpersonal ageism, and internalized ageism. You're listening to iRetire4Him. We'll be right back.

Break: Membership has its privileges and with the Retirement Reformation, it's true. We have three levels of membership to access our growing wealth of resources. We also provide discipleship and training to bring the Retirement Reformation alive in your life.

So join us. Go to Retirement Reformation.org and click on the membership tab. Choose the level of membership that will help you rethink, retool, reframe, and reform your retirement today. The basic level is free, so you can get started today. Take the journey from retirement to reformation so you can say iRetire4Him. RetirementReformation.org. Let's get back to more. iRetire4Him.

Jim: Hey, welcome back to iRetire4Him, the mouthpiece for the Retirement Reformation, as we once again bring on a special guest from the Netherlands today. Saskia Van Helden is with us. Bruce, in the last segment, in the last show that we had Saskia on, she shared a little bit of her story. Today what do you have for us?

Bruce: Well, today it's, it's gonna be a really the next stage of her story. And Judy and I were blessed to be in the Netherlands not that long ago. And, and to be able to go to church on a Sunday morning with Saskia and her husband and go to their home for lunch. And, and then her husband said to me, Saskia has something she'd like to talk to you about.

And I said, Great. I'd loved to listen. Well, what she shared with me blew me away. And so we wanna expose the way that God has used Saskia to begin to develop an international ministry, international impact with a very unusual name. What is the name of your ministry, Saskia?

Saskia Van Helden: Wake Up Deborah. Wake Up Deborah.

Bruce: Wake Up Deborah.

Jim: And it's found online at wakeupdeborah.org. Is that correct?

Saskia Van Helden: Yes, that's correct. Yes. Yes.

Bruce: So Wake Up Deborah. Tell me what in the world, or tell our audience what in the world is Wake Up Deborah.

Saskia Van Helden: Wake Up Deborah is a movement. It's a ministry of YFC International and it was initiated in Youth for Christ, Brazil in 1995. The national director went to a Korean conference of Evangelism, and during that conference, there was a prayer because thousands of young men went to go abroad as missionaries, and the prayer during the conference was a prayer of thanksgiving to God for all the moms that had been praying for those missionaries.

So the National Director of Youth of Christ, Brazil, he was impressed and said, that's a key factor. That's a key factor in bringing the gospel to the young generation. We start to pray for them, and I'm married to Martin and he used to be a member of the Board of Youth for Christ International, and once a year I joined him on a journey to a conference or whatever.

So we went to Argentina, to a conference, and between all kinds of stalls, there was a small table. And there was a woman my age and she had some buttons on the table and on the buttons there was just one question, Did you pray for your child today? That hit me and you know? It still hits me because I thought, Wow, what a message, What an appeal, because I live in a country of welfare.

In our country, children and teenagers, they have a love of stuff. They even don't need what they like, but who's praying for them? And even in our churches, we develop special programs for children and teenagers. They go to camp. We have youth workers, but how about prayer of the parents and the grandparents for our next generation?

So, I've been praying for a year to God, if it was his purpose to bring that ministry to the Netherlands and maybe to Europe, and in several ways God showed me that it was good because I knew prayer is not something, you just start like an event. It's more, it's, it's, it's about perseverance. So how that's how it started.

Bruce: And where does that name come from? Who is, Who is Deborah?

Saskia Van Helden: Deborah. Deborah is a courageous woman from the Bible and the Book of Judges, chapter five. We read about her. She is a judge and she's a very wise woman, and it was a time that more than once the Jewish people were disobedient. And to bring them back to God, God all the time sent them an enemy to attack them and then they returned to God.

So during the period of Judge Deborah again, Israel was disobedient and God sent the people of Canaan by King Jabed and Cesera commander. So the Israelites, they get scared again and they complained and whined. And so God said to Deborah, there's a man who can be the victor of the Canaanite people, but Barrack, he didn't dare to go alone.

And Deborah, she was the woman that went with him. And on the front of the army, she did battle herself, but she was on the front and she stand up as a mother of Israel to represent God in this society again, and that's why our ministry is called after this courageous woman.

Bruce: It does take courage to be able to step out into new areas that God has prepared you for, but you may not even be aware of it. And and then to be able to to be called to that. So Wake Up Deborah and you have a book that that you have written that describes the ministry and the ministry of, of older people praying for younger people. And that book has been now translated into how many different languages?

Saskia Van Helden: I think it's about seven or eight different languages. It's the Book of Faith, Prayer, and Teenagers. And while some countries follow, and I think the book is, is attractive because it's a very practical book. Many people do not know how to, how to pray regularly for their children or grandchildren. They, they treat God a bit like Santa, They think I've prayed today for their wellness and their health and good friends. What shall I pray tomorrow? But praying for young ones is having a relationship with God, what God is doing in their lives, and also having a living relationship with the children themselves to know what's important in their lives. So Faith, Prayer, and Teenagers encourages people to, to pray for the young ones.

Bruce: The thing that I was amazed of was that in fact, that that ministry of Wake Up Deborah has not yet crossed the oceans to come to America. And so hopefully through the Retirement Reformation we can change that. But then you realized, I think that there was another problem, if I remember our conversation well. And, and the problem had to do with the teenagers themselves. So what was that problem and what, and how did you, how did you step into beginning to answer that?

Saskia Van Helden: Wake up Deborah is active in the Eastern European countries. There is a collaboration between churches, Youth for Christ, and day center. In the day center, children come from broken or poor families. After school, they'd get a meal. Nice program. And the church members who are involved, they adopt the children to pray. So there's a praying relationship between children and church members, and we trained at churches and we trained prayer coordinators how to do that. But after a while we were thinking, how about teaching young teenagers, how to pray?

And I was looking just around the globe where manuals or educational books about learning how to pray and I couldn't find much materials. So we developed Open Up. That's a course, a prayer course for young teenagers and it's not only a book like going to school. Learning math or, or language and now learning to pray.

No, it's about a living relationship with God in a very nice interactiv e program. And there are animations to, to show the youth leaders how it works. There's a prayer hand poster because we use a method of the prayer hand. There's a prayer diary as a tool for the children and the teenagers to learn how to pray. So it's a, a whole package.

Bruce: One of the things that has, has been true throughout the generations - that the Dutch people are very systematic, very organized, and very perceptive, and you certainly demonstrate that. Cause when we think about the three different groups that are now connected together in this.

We have those who are doing the, the praying As, as older people praying for younger people. We have the learning of the younger people and the, that connectivity. And then, then we have the engagement of the church. And so when you think of that as a, as I would as a three-legged stool that are three legs.

And so we have the seniors. The older people, we have the younger people and we have the church. And to the degree to which that we are able to bring those generations and organizations together, I think is going to, has the opportunity to dramatically impact our culture and not only change people's lives, but change the lives of whole families and whole countries.

So I want to thank you for the perceptiveness that you have, for how you are bringing this together. And we just look, look forward to partnering with you and being able to spread that message even further because we know that that would be part of God's heart. And so we thank you because we know that you are part of his heart. So, thanks for being with us.

Jim: Yeah. Saskia. Before we, before we say goodbye, I got a another question for you. So you know, in the States, people retire somewhere between 55 and 70 years old per se. Not always, but sometimes - Bruce is still going. He's 81. With Wakeupdeborah.org, wakeupdeborah.org. It sounds like a woman's group just for women. Are men invited to pray for their children as well?

Saskia Van Helden: Yeah, very good question. It used to be a movement of women. Like in Latin America, we know women are militant. They come up for their children. But we say when Wake Up Deborah went around the globe, it's also a movement for men. So that's why we are talking about prayer parents, not only Deborahs or whatever the name can be of men, Daniel or what, but it's for men and it's very good point because we try to connect girls to women and boys to men in the prayer connection.

Jim: Very good.

Saskia Van Helden: So it's very important that fathers and grandfathers also pray and let their children know that they're praying. That's also important.

Jim: Saskia Van Helden, thank you so much for calling in all the way from the Netherlands for being a part of iRetire4Him and thanks for sharing your story and the ministry of WakeUpdeborah.org. Thank you Saskia.

Saskia Van Helden: Blessings for you.

Jim: We'll be right back with more on iRetire4Him.

Break: Every iRetire4Him show goes so quickly, we don't often get to remind you that there are two resources you should be checking out right now. I recommend that you get a copy of the Retirement Reformation book and the iRetire4Him book.

Retirement Reformation focuses on the mindset and behavioral changes needed, let's just say paradigm shifting that is needed to live out your faith in retirement. iRetire4Him is focused on many of the ways you could put your faith into action by investing your life into others in your retirement years. Get both at the Retirement Reformation website in the bookstore Retirement Reformation.org. That's RetirementReformation.org.

Jim: Welcome back to iRetire4Him with Bruce Bruinsma, the founder of The Retirement Reformation, right here on iRetire4Him as we talk about ageism and how do we see its effects across our country?

And our first, in part one of this three part podcast, we talked about what is ageism? And Bruce did a great job defining that and, and now we're talking about, you know, how do we see its wide ranging effects on our culture? And Bruce, I wanna break it down. I found some articles that indicated three major types of ageism, and I'd love if you would describe it. So what is institutional ageism and how have you observed it in action?

Bruce: So when we talk about, when we break them down in that way, which I think is a pretty way to help us to understand it, I think it's pretty clear. So institutional ageism - when an institution, a church, a church, a church, a business, an organization of some kind, but an institution perpetuates ageism through its actions and policy.

We see conversations with mission organizations all the time where, well, when is it that you need to retire as a missionary? And the conversation, Is it 65? Is it 67? Is it 70? Is it 75? When is it? But inherent in there, it says there is a point when your capacity is diminished and you no longer have value, and we are going to institutionalize that age. After that age you are now old. And it has impacts in lots of different ways. You, you'd like to think that those things aren't, that it doesn't work that way. But that's the way it works. A second one...

Jim: How about interpersonal ageism? Talk to me about that.

Bruce: Yeah. That's in that, that area of, of social interaction. And so, you know some of it's, it's nice and it's subtle. You know, Judy and I go to the gym most mornings around five o'clock, and as we're walking in, there's always others that are walking in and, and if there's someone else walking with us, typically a male, he will hold the door for me as well as for Judy. And so he, what he's saying is, I realize that you're old and you may need some help, and I want to give deference to that. So it's a very nice or out of respect for your wisdom and the years you've walked before me on this planet. I hold the door open to you out of respect because that would be why I would hold the door for you and I would appreciate that and, and we would become friends.

However, in those social environments, it's also, you know frankly, after I sit for a couple hours, I'm a little stiff. So when I'm getting up out of the chair, it's like, hmm, hey, you know, it's a struggle a little bit to get up. So if I'm somewhere where there are other people around, you know, somebody will grab my elbow or something. And I don't wanna smack 'em one, but on the other hand, I appreciate it. And, so there's that, that social suggestion that there is less than. And sometimes with the greatest of heart, but the message is still there. The message is still there and it still does impact. So what's the third one you want to ask me about?

Jim: I wanna talk about internalized ageism and how you're dealing with it personally.

Bruce: One of the true, one of the pieces of wisdom that God has imparted to me is in almost every situation to ask the question, let's figure out what's true and then let's go from there. So that whole process of figuring out what is true is, is really healthy because it's the platform for solving a problem or getting a greater understanding or whatever it may be. So internalized ageism - that example that I used in our last segment. The decision that Judy and I made to not go on that wind jammer cruise is part of internalized.

Now, in that case, it was not negative, it was just a realization of what is true. However, if you are not asking what is true, but how do I feel or how am I impacted or how am I being feel like I'm being taken advantage of? And those internalized feelings direct your path and change. I'll give you another example. One of the things I've learned about us older folks is, well, you know, when, when you're with a group, say in their thirties or forties, and there's a problem, let's say a church: you need to clean up the church or whatever it may be, and ask for volunteers and, you know, a bunch of people will volunteer.

You bring a bunch of seniors together, give 'em the same story and they have the capacity to, let's say that it's a group that has the capacity to do that, you ask 'em and nobody raises their hand. Interestingly enough, when you go to them individually and say, Hey, we need to clean up the church yard. I've got a couple of rakes. I'm gonna come over on Saturday afternoon. Would you come over and spend an hour or two with me and you know, let's clean this place up? Oh, I'd love to. Why is it that change? And, and that person who says exactly what I just, that older person who didn't raise his hand but was happy to do it, is because there is a hesitancy that comes from, Well, am I capable and do they really want me?

And so that individual conversation, so if you want seniors to do things, you gotta go ask them. And by and large, they're happy to do it. And they're capable of doing it, and maybe they're the best person to do it.

Jim: So what you're saying that internalized ageism can actually be just, we're believing the lies that are being spoken about the, the older generations, and it's not necessarily true about me. So in other words, I have, you know, I got a father that still climbs ladders at almost 90 years old. I ask him not to because I've seen him get a little wibbly on the ladder, but it doesn't mean he can't climb a ladder. We gotta study what's true because for him. Maybe climbing a ladder's still okay, but for somebody else climbing a ladder's not okay at 90. And it's, So what you're saying is we need to know what's true about us and not believe the lies that are spoken as a big blanket over chronologically superior people. Is that what you're saying?

Bruce: That is exactly what I'm saying and well said.

Jim: Well, you know, Martha and I still have the privilege of having all of our folks still alive, and we've seen how they've had to adjust and deal with the, the truth of their situation. So, Bruce, how does studying ageism, the reality of ageism help us as Christ followers - as Christ following retirees - to overcome it? How's, how's this study helping us to move forward?

Bruce: Well, you know, part of it, I think, Jim, and this is, it's in a lot of parts of our Christian walk and our Christian life, where does our guide come from? And in so many different issues, does our guide for life and ministry come from our culture? Or does it come from our father? Does it come from the principles laid out in the Bible? Does it come from our prayer conversation? Does it come from a community of believers that in fact can be supportive of each other? Where does it come from?

What, what determines our actions? You've heard me say often that you know the definition of retirement of our culture is, you know, it's one homogeneous period. It's all downhill mentally and physically, and then you die. And the goal is to jam as much as leisure as you can in the middle.

Well, if you're going to buy into that, if that's gonna be your guide, that will lead you to, you know, a lifetime of looking for meaningless leisure in a place like Sun City and my Sun City friends are gonna throw rocks at me. But do that as it may. Does it lead you there or does it lead you to a point of, hey, connecting with your grandchildren, of praying for younger people, of being able to support either the widow or the single mom in your church?

Being able to respond to and to look at things through the lens of the fruit of the spirit. And when we look at, we look at things through the lens of the fruits of the spirit, boy, if that's the values that we're bringing to our life and to our decision making, contrast 'em with what culture is doing. We got a chance for meaning and purpose.

Jim: And we're gonna go into that a lot deeper in part three of our ageism series. We talked about how our faith helps us overcome and really power past ageism and its effects on us. Bruce, great conversation. So excited that the Retirement Reformation online at retirementreformation.org has so many resources. They could just encourage all of the, those folks that are listening to the show today and, and just living out their faith where they go and to, and to believe the truth that God speaks into us instead of believe the lies that the culture likes to perpetuate. Thank you, Bruce.

Bruce: Always good to be here and with our audience. And hopefully the audience is really connecting with these things that are so vitally important.

Jim: For sure. You've been listening to iRetire4Him, The mouthpiece for the Retirement Reformation with your host, Jim Brangenberg, of course, Retirement Reformation's own founder Bruce Bruinsma. We're Christ followers, journeying from retirement to reformation so we can ultimately say iRetire4Him!

Outro: Thanks for listening to iRetire4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg and Retirement Reformation founder Bruce Bruinsma. IRetire4Him is the mouthpiece of the Retirement Reformation. Most Christians tend to follow the world's pattern of rest and self pampering during retirement.

However, in your retirement, you can be focused on God's unique call to love, serve, and help others. This can be your best season of life if you take advantage of a life's worth. And experience and combine it with a greater freedom of time and money, and invest it all in the generations, both preceding and following you.

The Retirement Reformation is encouraging Christians to find and follow God's call in all seasons and aspects of life, especially in retirement. Take time to sign the Manifesto at RetirementReformation.org. And explore the wealth of resources available on our site. Join this movement of God and Journey from retirement to Reformation so you can say iRetire4Him.

Go to Retirement Reformation.org.